Kellie Harper discussion/debate thread [merged]

Every fan should apologize to her after she defied the odds and reached the Sweet 16. Kellie is playing chess while everyone else is playing checkers...
This is so typical of the poster. Tell everyone the solution, quit bitching/trolling and tell everyone the answer ok. Waiting with baited breath………Be specific, real specific. Like tell everyone now the solution so we can all see your brilliance…like now. Right now, tell everyone your answer. Share your wisdom for once instead of your complaints, do it. Show us your wisdom right now sensei.

Thinking you just love to play the devil’s advocate and don’t have any answers yourself, but give us all a whirl Albert Einstein…Tell everyone the fix right now….put your troll ass on the line and say the answer or stfu. Go ahead, put it out there on record…

Did I make my position clear enough or was I too ambiguous?
 
Last edited:
This is so typical of the poster. Tell everyone the solution, quit bitching/trolling and tell everyone the answer ok. Waiting with baited breath………Be specific, real specific. Like tell everyone now the solution so we can all see your brilliance…like now. Right now, tell everyone your answer. Share your wisdom for once instead of your complaints, do it. Show us your wisdom right now sensei.

Thinking you just love to play the devil’s advocate and don’t have any answers yourself, but give us all a whirl Albert Einstein…Tell everyone the fix right now….put your troll ass on the line and say the answer or stfu. Go ahead, put it out there on record…

Did I make my position clear enough or was I too ambiguous?

Ah, I see Darth finally made you snap. Congratulations, Rooster1, you're now an official VolNation Lady Vol forum poster now. Full rights and privileges. You've earned it.

Well, there aren't actually any full rights and privileges, but I'd give 'em to you if I could.
 
Fire her. Close the program down because no one is ever going to do what Pat did here. Hell, Pat couldn't do it again with the parity that is evident in the women's game. Some of you are just living in the past too much and have a way over inflated valuation of what your opinion matters. Dr. Danny White is the one that is going to make the decision on CKH, not some self important jack wagon on a fan forum who may claim to have coached for years, but for all any of their devotees knkw, it been all church summer ball. Get a life. They lost. The sun will come up tomorrow.
 
Fire her. Close the program down because no one is ever going to do what Pat did here. Hell, Pat couldn't do it again with the parity that is evident in the women's game. Some of you are just living in the past too much and have a way over inflated valuation of what your opinion matters. Dr. Danny White is the one that is going to make the decision on CKH, not some self important jack wagon on a fan forum who may claim to have coached for years, but for all any of their devotees knkw, it been all church summer ball. Get a life. They lost. The sun will come up tomorrow.
Anyone else remember this?


Stop all the clocks, cut off the telephone,​
Prevent the dog from barking with a juicy bone,​
Silence the pianos and with muffled drum​
Bring out the coffin, let the mourners come.​
Let aeroplanes circle moaning overhead​
Scribbling on the sky the message He Is Dead,​
Put crepe bows round the white necks of the public doves,​
Let the traffic policemen wear black cotton gloves.​
He was my North, my South, my East and West,​
My working week and my Sunday rest,​
My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;​
I thought that love would last for ever: I was wrong.​
The stars are not wanted now: put out every one;​
Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;​
Pour away the ocean and sweep up the wood.​
For nothing now can ever come to any good.”​

So I say we may be getting too dramatic and need to check coats at the front desk, life goes on, get busy living or …deservings got nothing to do with it, time to go to work. Tomorrow is a new day. Whiners and trolls won’t help anyone, let them go. This is a flagship, someone will steer it back to sea. It got close this year….
 
Last edited:
Worst thing for the lady vols today was uconn losing just before they played. It took their minds off of the goal.
Or Showed the mentality of the team. Of not being able to take it to another level when given the opportunity.
 
What progress has the program made the last four years under Harper? The answer, sadly, is that we haven't made any /real/ progress. We're pretty much where we were when she was hired--meaning nowhere close to being a national contender again. . . . I rate her and her staff as slightly better coaches than Warlick and her staff, but not as good at recruiting.
Disagree. IMO the Harper staff are solidly better coaches than the Holly staff and we have made real progress. Not having the stupid losses to bad teams is progress and the progress on culture is extraordinary. The toughness and ability to keep clawing and come back are progress. Holly teams were notorious quiters. I actually think we are close-ish to returning to national prominence, which is what makes this so frustrating.

Harper herself said the last inch seems like miles, and that's exactly the case. I'm just not sure if Harper and Co. are going to be able to push it forward over the line into the promised land. They may end up like Moses watching from the distant mountaintop while someone else finishes the job.

Recruiting is a big part of it, bc obviously the number of one dimensional players who have to be planned around is a huge drag on the progress. Those players can be very solid contributors as role players, but she MUST find a guard (or 2 if Horston goes) who are quick, good defenders and can shoot the dang 3.

The next few weeks are going to tell a big tale re a personnel upgrade. The next season is going to tell a big tale on Harper. If not then, I'm afraid it's never. But I do think Kellie would be leaving the program in much better shape.
 
Fire her. Close the program down because no one is ever going to do what Pat did here. Hell, Pat couldn't do it again with the parity that is evident in the women's game. Some of you are just living in the past too much and have a way over inflated valuation of what your opinion matters. Dr. Danny White is the one that is going to make the decision on CKH, not some self important jack wagon on a fan forum who may claim to have coached for years, but for all any of their devotees knkw, it been all church summer ball. Get a life. They lost. The sun will come up tomorrow.

IMO this is right on but is where Pat wanted Women's B Ball to end up. I think it is headed to even more parity. I started paying attention a little when most of the P5 teams did not consider putting anything in to women's game. Some of the top teams where Louisiana tech, Old Dominion and Southern Cal, Pepperdine & teams out west were local HS ball was so good and getting the best players was just a natural, no national recruiting. UT got on board early after Pat worked her butt off from AIAW 1978 to transition to NCAA and winning her 1st Nat in 1986/87. I think this is just the start of how she imagined the parity in the game. The portal will make it even more so IMO.
 
Disagree. IMO the Harper staff are solidly better coaches than the Holly staff and we have made real progress. Not having the stupid losses to bad teams is progress and the progress on culture is extraordinary. The toughness and ability to keep clawing and come back are progress. Holly teams were notorious quiters. I actually think we are close-ish to returning to national prominence, which is what makes this so frustrating.

Harper herself said the last inch seems like miles, and that's exactly the case. I'm just not sure if Harper and Co. are going to be able to push it forward over the line into the promised land. They may end up like Moses watching from the distant mountaintop while someone else finishes the job.

Recruiting is a big part of it, bc obviously the number of one dimensional players who have to be planned around is a huge drag on the progress. Those players can be very solid contributors as role players, but she MUST find a guard (or 2 if Horston goes) who are quick, good defenders and can shoot the dang 3.

The next few weeks are going to tell a big tale re a personnel upgrade. The next season is going to tell a big tale on Harper. If not then, I'm afraid it's never. But I do think Kellie would be leaving the program in much better shape.

I tend to agree the Harper culture is much better. The head scratching losses have largely disappeared as well. Holly overall had better players the last few years but their chemistry seemed off. I can't detect much negativity among the Harper teams, except the benching of RJ for whatever early in the year.

I too question if day to day coaching is better and I think most agree recruiting is a problem. Harper has this program in back to back S16s with good records and are in the position most of the WBB community would love to be in. The fans on the other hand have much higher expectations and understandably so given the history of the program and resources the university dedicates to the sport. I too want to see the LVs back in the FF and in the top 5 but those will take some roster upgrades but also some coaching acumen.
 
Last edited:
Disagree. IMO the Harper staff are solidly better coaches than the Holly staff and we have made real progress. Not having the stupid losses to bad teams is progress and the progress on culture is extraordinary. The toughness and ability to keep clawing and come back are progress. Holly teams were notorious quiters. I actually think we are close-ish to returning to national prominence, which is what makes this so frustrating.

Harper herself said the last inch seems like miles, and that's exactly the case. I'm just not sure if Harper and Co. are going to be able to push it forward over the line into the promised land. They may end up like Moses watching from the distant mountaintop while someone else finishes the job.

Recruiting is a big part of it, bc obviously the number of one dimensional players who have to be planned around is a huge drag on the progress. Those players can be very solid contributors as role players, but she MUST find a guard (or 2 if Horston goes) who are quick, good defenders and can shoot the dang 3.

The next few weeks are going to tell a big tale re a personnel upgrade. The next season is going to tell a big tale on Harper. If not then, I'm afraid it's never. But I do think Kellie would be leaving the program in much better shape.

I go back and forth on recruiting. The players she brought in are a big reason for the culture shift. That sophomore class has now played in back to back sweet 16s. They have been a big reason Kellie has been able to bring in transfers and not mess with the culture. The situation with RJ could’ve gone bad but that was another culture win. With the transfer portal, how many are truly needed from the high school ranks? Do you take more than 2-3? I could see the 2027 class being a big class similar to this years sophomore class. Jill was one that we really wanted out of high school and we got her as a sophomore in the portal. There are a few that we really wanted this year as freshman that are now in the portal. I’m curious to see what Kellie and staff do in the portal.
 
Tom Izzo, the great Michigan State coach, acknowledged before his Sweet 16 game, that there are "expectations" for his team every year because
of their history of achievement--2 or more national titles, etc. And that word--expectations---seems to be the dividing line between Vol fans. Some of us--myself most definitely included--have high expectations for the program based on our tradition and (fading) history of success. Many others seem to view the Vols these days as Mississippi or Utah or some program that's never really done much and if it gets to the Sweet 16, wow, what a season!

No. We are not just any program--although that's how we've been by and large for 15 years. Getting to the Sweet 16 should be the absolute FLOOR for this program, not the ceiling. You think the fans of men's programs like UNC, Kansas, Michigan State would accept many years of mediocre play? No, they wouldn't and they don't.

We need a coach who can move the needle /demonstrably./ Harper, in four years, has moved the needle a little--not nearly enough. Ask yourself this: Why are Va. Tech and Iowa--two programs that have never won anything-- number 1 seeds and not us? In fact, we had to rally late in the season to get a 4 seed. And I could pick half a dozen other teams from this year and ask the same question--and half a dozen teams from last year with NO HISTORY of winning national titles who demonstrably out-performed us, and a dozen programs with minimal tradition from the year before that, and the year before that. Does Va. Tech have more talent than we do? I look at that team and say, no, they're just better coached.

We have what SHOULD be a competitive advantage--a major competitive advantage: Our tradition. Yet we've had coaches who have not been good enough to make good use of it. Yes, there is more parity than ever before, and that makes it more difficult to get back to the top. All the more reason why we must have a first-rate staff. Yes, the portal changes the dynamics of recruiting. Even so, if you were to tell me a few years ago that this program could only recruit 1 top 100 player in not one by TWO years--a player who barely played this year--I would have told you you were crazy.

We all want Harper to succeed--but at some point you have to show you can succeed---demonstrably succeed. Beating Toledo at home in the 2nd round is not demonstrable success for this program--unless you've lowered your expectations a lot, as many fans have. Beating Va. Tech would have been--and we were 17 points down in the 3rd quarter......We had 8 assists/18 turnovers--same bad A/TO ratio that's plagued us for years. Our two most talented players had 13 turnovers between them---13! Did anyone watching yesterday's game think. "oh, yea, we're on the cusp of becoming a national title contender again?" A bit of incremental progress after four years--and only that because of landing a talented transfer--is not my definition of success for this program.
 
If we fail to get past the S16 next year and don’t make a change, that means we accept being a B list program now. Pat did not toil for almost 40 years here with the intent that the whole thing would fall apart after she left.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mcannon1
Tom Izzo, the great Michigan State coach, acknowledged before his Sweet 16 game, that there are "expectations" for his team every year because
of their history of achievement--2 or more national titles, etc. And that word--expectations---seems to be the dividing line between Vol fans. Some of us--myself most definitely included--have high expectations for the program based on our tradition and (fading) history of success. Many others seem to view the Vols these days as Mississippi or Utah or some program that's never really done much and if it gets to the Sweet 16, wow, what a season!

No. We are not just any program--although that's how we've been by and large for 15 years. Getting to the Sweet 16 should be the absolute FLOOR for this program, not the ceiling. You think the fans of men's programs like UNC, Kansas, Michigan State would accept many years of mediocre play? No, they wouldn't and they don't.

We need a coach who can move the needle /demonstrably./ Harper, in four years, has moved the needle a little--not nearly enough. Ask yourself this: Why are Va. Tech and Iowa--two programs that have never won anything-- number 1 seeds and not us? In fact, we had to rally late in the season to get a 4 seed. And I could pick half a dozen other teams from this year and ask the same question--and half a dozen teams from last year with NO HISTORY of winning national titles who demonstrably out-performed us, and a dozen programs with minimal tradition from the year before that, and the year before that. Does Va. Tech have more talent than we do? I look at that team and say, no, they're just better coached.

We have what SHOULD be a competitive advantage--a major competitive advantage: Our tradition. Yet we've had coaches who have not been good enough to make good use of it. Yes, there is more parity than ever before, and that makes it more difficult to get back to the top. All the more reason why we must have a first-rate staff. Yes, the portal changes the dynamics of recruiting. Even so, if you were to tell me a few years ago that this program could only recruit 1 top 100 player in not one by TWO years--a player who barely played this year--I would have told you you were crazy.

We all want Harper to succeed--but at some point you have to show you can succeed---demonstrably succeed. Beating Toledo at home in the 2nd round is not demonstrable success for this program--unless you've lowered your expectations a lot, as many fans have. Beating Va. Tech would have been--and we were 17 points down in the 3rd quarter......We had 8 assists/18 turnovers--same bad A/TO ratio that's plagued us for years. Our two most talented players had 13 turnovers between them---13! Did anyone watching yesterday's game think. "oh, yea, we're on the cusp of becoming a national title contender again?" A bit of incremental progress after four years--and only that because of landing a talented transfer--is not my definition of success for this program.
Well said. VT beat us with 6 players yesterday which is another issue. This season has had fall back excuses from the start, chemistry early, Key health issues, RJ bench, rotation, “tough schedule” etc. Every team we are chasing has excuses, leadership overcomes the excuses and finds ways to win. Concur on what Izzo said, our brand has expectations and with each passing year of those expectations not being achieved we distance ourselves on the glory years and current players remembering.
 
Disagree. IMO the Harper staff are solidly better coaches than the Holly staff and we have made real progress. Not having the stupid losses to bad teams is progress and the progress on culture is extraordinary. The toughness and ability to keep clawing and come back are progress. Holly teams were notorious quiters. I actually think we are close-ish to returning to national prominence, which is what makes this so frustrating.

Harper herself said the last inch seems like miles, and that's exactly the case. I'm just not sure if Harper and Co. are going to be able to push it forward over the line into the promised land. They may end up like Moses watching from the distant mountaintop while someone else finishes the job.

Recruiting is a big part of it, bc obviously the number of one dimensional players who have to be planned around is a huge drag on the progress. Those players can be very solid contributors as role players, but she MUST find a guard (or 2 if Horston goes) who are quick, good defenders and can shoot the dang 3.

The next few weeks are going to tell a big tale re a personnel upgrade. The next season is going to tell a big tale on Harper. If not then, I'm afraid it's never. But I do think Kellie would be leaving the program in much better shape.
Yes maybe in a better place than under prior coach, but not significantly. If coach Harper cannot recruit better and then coach better it’s not looking promising.
 
I tend to agree the Harper culture is much better. The head scratching losses have largely disappeared as well. Holly overall had better players the last few years but their chemistry seemed off. I can't detect much negativity among the Harper teams, except the benching of RJ for whatever early in the year.

I too question if day to day coaching is better and I think most agree recruiting is a problem. Harper has this program in back to back S16s with good records and are in the position most of the WBB community would love to be in. The fans on the other hand have much higher expectations and understandably so given the history of the program and resources the university dedicates to the sport. I too want to see the LVs back in the FF and in the top 5 but those will take some roster upgrades but also some coaching acumen.

recruiting is definitely a detrement but in-game coaching was weak this season....I grade a coach by one significant factor,,,
"Where the wins/losses bc of the players or bc of the coach?"
 
I’m still not sold that we are in a better place now than we were under Holly. Fact remains that Holly took us to 3 Elite Eights in 7 years and we said that wasn’t good enough (and it wasn’t good enough - I wanted her fired 3 years before it actually happened).

If at this time next year we are not still in the dance, it means we’ve given Kellie 5 years and gotten ZERO Elite Eights. If that doesn’t result in a change, it means we’ve accepted a lower standard. Period.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Majors and T_Vol376
Do y’all remember where Holly LEFT us?? Yes, she did well the first few years with Pat’s recruits but by the end of her time we were all worrying if we’d even make the tournament much less be a 1-4 seed. I’m not convinced Coach Kellie is the ultimate answer but we are better on the court than where Holly left us.
 
Maybe Kellie Harper will figure it out but just like men's basketball some fans need to think about what they wish for she will be okay just like Barnes will be
 
Do y’all remember where Holly LEFT us?? Yes, she did well the first few years with Pat’s recruits but by the end of her time we were all worrying if we’d even make the tournament much less be a 1-4 seed. I’m not convinced Coach Kellie is the ultimate answer but we are better on the court than where Holly left us.
All of kellies best players are Holly recruits other than her good portal pickups of Dye and Jackson
 
Do y’all remember where Holly LEFT us?? Yes, she did well the first few years with Pat’s recruits but by the end of her time we were all worrying if we’d even make the tournament much less be a 1-4 seed. I’m not convinced Coach Kellie is the ultimate answer but we are better on the court than where Holly left us.
No one is saying KJH is not an improvement.
At least that is not what I am saying
But what I AM saying is, Kellie got to a point and then stifled.
Those two blowouts were not a coaching thing, they were against teams that shouldn't even be on the same breath as TN
Once we got to an equal program/team, our lack of growth was revealed
 
  • Like
Reactions: volnationnj
It's amazing how little progress KJH made over 37 games on the question of whether she can coach at an elite level. Didn't lose any ground, but sure as heck didn't gain any. Certainly didn't produce results the roster on paper suggests she should have.

37 games of her NINETEENTH season as head coach, eight of those at high profile P5 level. If you're still unsure at this point, maybe you do have your answer...
 
Do y’all remember where Holly LEFT us?? Yes, she did well the first few years with Pat’s recruits but by the end of her time we were all worrying if we’d even make the tournament much less be a 1-4 seed. I’m not convinced Coach Kellie is the ultimate answer but we are better on the court than where Holly left us.
Pat was the coach in name in her final two years. Holly won’t get credit for how that team played and stayed competitive. And also Holly recruited many of those players that won under Pat as well as left Kellie her two best players in Key and JH.
 
37 games of her NINETEENTH season as head coach, eight of those at high profile P5 level. If you're still unsure at this point, maybe you do have your answer...
Believe many here forget this isn’t her first job. At this stage she is who she is….RJ was a blessing to her coaching deficiencies.
 
Last edited:
37 games of her NINETEENTH season as head coach, eight of those at high profile P5 level. If you're still unsure at this point, maybe you do have your answer...
Fortunately on a sports board, I'm allowed to have irrational hope that flys in the face of two decades of evidence. I have a scintilla of hope that the proverbial "next year" will be the year she finally starts beating good teams at least occasionally. I know its an echo of this year, but if not next year w the same roster and all this bitter experience to learn from, when?

Also call me crazy bc I do believe she's very, very close. So much good foundation is in place but the on court progress feels glacial. I realize that may be bc due to lack of coaching accumen. You have the foundation, why isn't it happening. Let's see what they learn and apply for next year.

A good start would be dialing back the schedule to a dull roar. It turns out, for all the many, many times they all said the schedule paid off, it actually didn't. Don't think it mattered a bit yesterday that they played Indiana instead of Tennessee Tech last November.

At least next year has turned into something to look forward to. Imagine if we had this loss and were looking at what we thought we would be. Ugh. Things could be worse
 
Pat was the coach in name in her final two years. Holly won’t get credit for how that team played and stayed competitive. And also Holly recruited many of those players that won under Pat as well as left Kellie her two best players in Key and JH.

This. But all we hear is, “But… but… Holly had Pat’s recruits.” I also think some people will not acknowledge that the type of players we have now and the way you have to handle them is different. Unfortunately Holly lost the team and we know the rest of that story, but I think she was a better coach than she got credit for.
 

VN Store



Back
Top