Lack of Playmakers.

[ochocinco]

I truly cannot stand Lane Kiffin, but the one thing I liked about his recruiting was the idea that he had a relentless pursuit year in and year out of always signing quality, explosive playmakers. I want that mentality to stay in Knoxville.

wth? exactly how many explosive playmakers on our team signed with kiffin? sure he talked the talk and pimped the chopper, but you are basing your admiration on something that never actually happened...

 

[winchestervol63]

wth? exactly how many explosive playmakers on our team signed with kiffin? sure he talked the talk and pimped the chopper, but you are basing your admiration on something that never actually happened...

Agreed. From the little we've seen, it looks like DaRick Rogers and Justin Hunter alone are likely to be better offensive playmakers than Kiffin brought in. Rajion Neal, too, for that matter. (umm, pretty sure they're already better playmakers at UT than BB and NR, no?).

 

[Volnidas]

Okay, so the entire substance of your argument is that not many new/young head coaches become great head coaches, so any particular one is question isn't likely to become a great head coach.

So all you're doing is playing the odds, without any consideration to what qualities you personally think help a guy to become a great coach and whether or not you see those in Dooley.

You would obviously have bet against Saban, too, back when he was at Kent State. Against Urban Meyer as well, at Utah. And against CPF at UT (let's don't start that argument up. Great coach or not, it cannot be argued that he didn't have great success for a significant period of time at UT). You could certainly end up being right, but all you're doing is stating that not many coaches become great coaches. That's trivial - everyone knows that. If they did, 'great' would have no meaning anyway.

I think that smart guys make great coaches. Most coaches are reasonably smart, but many are not exceptional in that regard. I happen to know that anyone who was accepted and graduated from UGA Law School is exceptionally bright - it is a very well respected law school and difficult to get into as public University Law Schools go. I think a guy who is good with logic can be a great coach and at it's core, that's what law school and practicing law is about. Think a guy has to know a thing or two about recruiting and think Dooley does - that's partly based on Saban's opinion and partly based on job history. Think he has to be personable in this day and age, so that he is reasonably well accepted/presented by the media. I don't necessarily like that, but know that it can matter in public perception/recruiting. I think that a guy who has been around football his entire life has a better chance of being successful than a guy who hasn't. I think a guy who doesn't waste time on things he can't control and that do not directly affect his team can be good. Think a guy has to put in at least 3-4 years to build a great program and that he has to be a good cultural fit with the University to have longevity and to appeal to many of the players that he needs to sign.

I think Dooley has a chance to be good based on the qualities that I think are important. I certainly don't know that he will, but am anxious to see. If we aren't pretty strong by 2012 or 2013, then I will likely have a different opinion of him. Until then, I'll be watching and refining my opinion.

The difference between Saban, Meyer and Dooley is that Saban and Meyer were proven coaches when they got they're big jobs at LSU and UF respectively. Yes somebody had to take a chance on them for them to prove that they were great head coaches, but those chances should be taken by schools like Kent State, Bowling Green and Utah not UT. UT is a big time school as such they shouldn't take a huge risk on a unproven coach. I do know that one has to be decently intelligent to graduate from UGA law. I'm actually currently applying to law school, will be starting law school next fall. But the intelligence required in law school doesn't really correlate to him becoming a great head coach. After all I don't think either Saban or Meyer have attended grad school of any kind(they might have I'm not sure). The main reason I don't think Dooley will be successful is because I don't think he will ever be able to out recruit guys like Saban, Meyer and Miles. I believe recruiting is the most part of building a top tier program. So far our recruiting class is mediocre at best.

 

[ptclaus98]

Stephens was that size after five years at UT. He was also 5'8.

He was also a bawss.

 

[Biopsyman]

Agreed but we are turning the page. Who wins the player when you hae in home visits and you line up is Saban. Meyer, the Notre Dame Coach at anytime, Miles, Stoops, Mack Brown and then DOOLEY? Right now it is no contest DOOLEY wins:machgun:. I feel that we are where Nebraska was 5 years ago..... and they are risen from the dead! GBO

 

[Forty]

They would get drilled night in and night out if they had to play UF, Bama, UGA, USCjr, LSU, Ole Miss and UK in a single season.

Well i would also win the lottery if i was given the numbers, but that wont happen either so. thats irrevelant.

Over the past several years they have beat teams like OK, Oregon State, Ok State, Oregon, PITT, BYU, Mich, Baylor, V. Tech, and lets not forget Utahs 31-17 over Ala. they beat all these teams without so called playmakers same cailber or star quality of some of our recruits.

p.s to add to your SEC night in and night out, every team out of our conference would get drilled as well. SEC is far superior

 

[Volnidas]

Well i would also win the lottery if i was given the numbers, but that wont happen either so. thats irrevelant.

Over the past several years they have beat teams like OK, Oregon State, Ok State, Oregon, PITT, BYU, Mich, Baylor, V. Tech, and lets not forget Utahs 31-17 over Ala. they beat all these teams without so called playmakers same cailber or star quality of some of our recruits.

p.s to add to your SEC night in and night out, every team out of our conference would get drilled as well. SEC is far superior

Yes they have beaten some legit teams but thats because they usually only play 2 legit teams a year, so they have they luxury of spending a lot more time on preparing for those games. So basically what I'm saying is that if we had their talent level in the SEC we wouldn't win anything.

 

[MyBloodRunnethOrange]

Travis Stephens wasn't much bigger his Senior year in highschool. never know what a guy will do.

Seems like someone else uses that same avatar.

 

[winchestervol63]

The difference between Saban, Meyer and Dooley is that Saban and Meyer were proven coaches when they got they're big jobs at LSU and UF respectively. Yes somebody had to take a chance on them for them to prove that they were great head coaches, but those chances should be taken by schools like Kent State, Bowling Green and Utah not UT. UT is a big time school as such they shouldn't take a huge risk on a unproven coach. I do know that one has to be decently intelligent to graduate from UGA law. I'm actually currently applying to law school, will be starting law school next fall. But the intelligence required in law school doesn't really correlate to him becoming a great head coach. After all I don't think either Saban or Meyer have attended grad school of any kind(they might have I'm not sure). The main reason I don't think Dooley will be successful is because I don't think he will ever be able to out recruit guys like Saban, Meyer and Miles. I believe recruiting is the most part of building a top tier program. So far our recruiting class is mediocre at best.

I would prefer a better class of commitments at this point and I would've preferred to have hired a 'great' coach as well. I guess the big difference between your viewpoint and mine is that I believe that the particular situation that UT was in and is still in precludes the possibility of those options having happened.

The timing of the coaching change was about the worst imaginable - a few weeks before NSD. UT's cupboard, while not bare, was obviously very, very thin and any coach with worth hiring realized that it's a 3-4 yr rebuilding job. I just believe that it was impossible to have hired a 'great' coach who is at the top of his game under those circumstances - most wouldn't drop their current teams if they were remotely comparable to UT in reputation right before NSD whereas noone who is sensible could fault a guy for leaving for a clearly better and higher-level job. So, I don't judge the hiring of Dooley by comparing it to a perfect-case scenario that I don't believe was at all possible. I judge it by a plausible alternative instead.

A plausible alternative is getting a coach of Cutcliffe's level. Like Cut a lot, but he is older and has had some health issues, so he may have fewer years to establish himself and lead the program. He has been a head coach at a major university before without distinguishing himself. I think his upside could reasonably be viewed as limited. Of course, that view could be wrong, but it is plausible.

The hire had to be made almost immediately to have any chance of salvaging the class. Write off last year's recruiting class and you might add two years to the rebuilding time needed. Had to be a college guy to hit the ground running on recruiting and I think he had to be very familiar with the SEC and recruiting landscape to salvage the recruiting class. So, limit the choices to a guy from a lesser level school, college only, SEC familiarity, and some demonstrated recruiting background and I'm not sure who would've been a better candidate than CDD. (other qualifications obviously exist and go without saying)

Think Dooley did very well recruiting last year. Got Stone, who Saban coveted. Got DaRick and Hunter, who were highly sought-after. So, I think he can recruit. As for out-recruiting those coaches, you do it the only way it's possible, one recruit at a time. Stone is one. Hunter and Rogers are 2 and 3 - anyone would've taken them. He's not signed yet, but doubt that the LB Johnson would have trouble getting his calls returned by any of them, either.

For this year's class, he had a very late start, obviously. The high star guys generally commit very early (many to their nearby or lifelong favorite teams) or they commit very late, it seems to me. You can't start recruiting them after NSD, a year later than everyone else, and expect to commit your fair share early. I think it's impossible. Saban didn't do it his first recruiting class at Bama, either.

So, if that's how it works, you better find a good base of commitable 3 stars who meet your needs and who you think are capable SEC players. Of course some will hit and some will miss - it's that way everywhere. Then, once you've got a good base in place, you keep pushing for the high stars guys who are going to commit late to complete the class.

The thing that you absolutely cannot do is to hold out for mostly 4 star and 5 star guys and then scramble late in the year to find whatever 3 star guys you can to fill up the class. The late signing 3 stars may be guys that you aren't as high on since you've gotta pull the trigger in a big hurry, from a smaller pool of players. Might not even get the guys at your positions of need.

I haven't seen anything that isn't logical given the circumstances. Sure, I would prefer to have 10 four and five* commitments at this point, but I've never seen that happen in the history of college FB under similar circumstances and know that Saban didn't do it either. So, I don't consider it determinative in deciding whether Dooley can recruit or succeed as a head coach.

Good luck with law school. Ironically enough, I was accepted and was almost a classmate of CDD's at UGA, but decided sooner than he did I didn't wanna be a lawyer...

 

[mooreaj21]

^^^ :clapping::salute::clapping:

 

[DaddyChad]

How come a lot of our commits were evaluated by our staff as good enough for UT, but Saban, Meyer, Richt, Miles and Chizik didn't think they were good enough for their programs?

Why don't you point out which specific commited recruits you have a problem with? All of those coaches have a talent rich supply of recruits in their backyards.

 

[winchestervol63]

Oh hell, I gotta star now...lol. Hadn't noticed that and didn't realize my rollover date.

 

[Volnidas]

I would prefer a better class of commitments at this point and I would've preferred to have hired a 'great' coach as well. I guess the big difference between your viewpoint and mine is that I believe that the particular situation that UT was in and is still in precludes the possibility of those options having happened.

The timing of the coaching change was about the worst imaginable - a few weeks before NSD. UT's cupboard, while not bare, was obviously very, very thin and any coach with worth hiring realized that it's a 3-4 yr rebuilding job. I just believe that it was impossible to have hired a 'great' coach who is at the top of his game under those circumstances - most wouldn't drop their current teams if they were remotely comparable to UT in reputation right before NSD whereas noone who is sensible could fault a guy for leaving for a clearly better and higher-level job. So, I don't judge the hiring of Dooley by comparing it to a perfect-case scenario that I don't believe was at all possible. I judge it by a plausible alternative instead.

A plausible alternative is getting a coach of Cutcliffe's level. Like Cut a lot, but he is older and has had some health issues, so he may have fewer years to establish himself and lead the program. He has been a head coach at a major university before without distinguishing himself. I think his upside could reasonably be viewed as limited. Of course, that view could be wrong, but it is plausible.

The hire had to be made almost immediately to have any chance of salvaging the class. Write off last year's recruiting class and you might add two years to the rebuilding time needed. Had to be a college guy to hit the ground running on recruiting and I think he had to be very familiar with the SEC and recruiting landscape to salvage the recruiting class. So, limit the choices to a guy from a lesser level school, college only, SEC familiarity, and some demonstrated recruiting background and I'm not sure who would've been a better candidate than CDD. (other qualifications obviously exist and go without saying)

Think Dooley did very well recruiting last year. Got Stone, who Saban coveted. Got DaRick and Hunter, who were highly sought-after. So, I think he can recruit. As for out-recruiting those coaches, you do it the only way it's possible, one recruit at a time. Stone is one. Hunter and Rogers are 2 and 3 - anyone would've taken them. He's not signed yet, but doubt that the LB Johnson would have trouble getting his calls returned by any of them, either.

For this year's class, he had a very late start, obviously. The high star guys generally commit very early (many to their nearby or lifelong favorite teams) or they commit very late, it seems to me. You can't start recruiting them after NSD, a year later than everyone else, and expect to commit your fair share early. I think it's impossible. Saban didn't do it his first recruiting class at Bama, either.

So, if that's how it works, you better find a good base of commitable 3 stars who meet your needs and who you think are capable SEC players. Of course some will hit and some will miss - it's that way everywhere. Then, once you've got a good base in place, you keep pushing for the high stars guys who are going to commit late to complete the class.

The thing that you absolutely cannot do is to hold out for mostly 4 star and 5 star guys and then scramble late in the year to find whatever 3 star guys you can to fill up the class. The late signing 3 stars may be guys that you aren't as high on since you've gotta pull the trigger in a big hurry, from a smaller pool of players. Might not even get the guys at your positions of need.

I haven't seen anything that isn't logical given the circumstances. Sure, I would prefer to have 10 four and five* commitments at this point, but I've never seen that happen in the history of college FB under similar circumstances and know that Saban didn't do it either. So, I don't consider it determinative in deciding whether Dooley can recruit or succeed as a head coach.

Good luck with law school. Ironically enough, I was accepted and was almost a classmate of CDD's at UGA, but decided sooner than he did I didn't wanna be a lawyer...

I agree with all your points. Saban landed a top 10 class his 1st year but he was in a lot better position than Dooley is at the moment. I guess I have too much pride when it comes to UT because I found it ridiculous that coaches at some smaller schools were turning us down. I definitely think Dooley should get a chance to prove himself thats the only way we'll know if he can be successful. I still think Hamilton should have gone all out for Jim Harbaugh. All he could have done was said no, but I never even heard his name mentioned when Hamilton was conducting his search. Thanks. I hear it's really tough for lawyers to find a job right now just like most other professions at the moment, but I've decided to go to law school anyways. I want to get into business after law school. Hopefully I'll know where I'll be attending before Christmas.

 

[Volnidas]

Why don't you point out which specific commited recruits you have a problem with? All of those coaches have a talent rich supply of recruits in their backyards.

Just because we don't have a rich talent base doesn't mean we should just take 2nd tier players, which I'm not saying we've taken 2nd tier players in our class. I like all of our commits except for maybe 3 prospects. I feel like we could have done better then Harris, Power and Young. I was feeling good about this class up until we took Young's commitment. We had 15 commits before Young committed so we had 10 spots left. I felt like the staff would be very selective with who they take with those 10 spots to finish strong. I feel like Buie is the type player we should be taking at the moment instead of Young. Young might turn out to be great but I think we can all agree that Buie is a better prospect. Hopefully the staff doesn't stop recruiting Buie after Young's commitment.

 

[winchestervol63]

I agree with all your points. Saban landed a top 10 class his 1st year but he was in a lot better position than Dooley is at the moment. I guess I have too much pride when it comes to UT because I found it ridiculous that coaches at some smaller schools were turning us down. I definitely think Dooley should get a chance to prove himself thats the only way we'll know if he can be successful. I still think Hamilton should have gone all out for Jim Harbaugh. All he could have done was said no, but I never even heard his name mentioned when Hamilton was conducting his search. Thanks. I hear it's really tough for lawyers to find a job right now just like most other professions at the moment, but I've decided to go to law school anyways. I want to get into business after law school. Hopefully I'll know where I'll be attending before Christmas.

Good deal. Don't sweat the state of the job market right now - that always changes. You get that law degree and then you'll figure out where to go from there. I'm an engineer and took the LSAT on a lark (I know, engineer and lawyer generally doesn't mix, but it did for me.). When I did well on it, I decided to at least apply somewhere and then decide. Was very late in the year before I imagined doing it, after most schools weren't taking apps, but UGA took them up through March or so. So that was the only place that I applied.

FWIW, my reservation with being a lawyer was just that I can get so worked up about the logic and arguments involved in a case/issue that I thought that I might wind up being just a little too consumed with it all, if you know what I mean. Imagined that if I argued for a living that I might not end up living all that long...lol. So, I do it as an amateur here on VN instead and sleep just fine errynight.

Have a good one -

 

[DaddyChad]

Just because we don't have a rich talent base doesn't mean we should just take 2nd tier players, which I'm not saying we've taken 2nd tier players in our class. I like all of our commits except for maybe 3 prospects. I feel like we could have done better then Harris, Power and Young. I was feeling good about this class up until we took Young's commitment. We had 15 commits before Young committed so we had 10 spots left. I felt like the staff would be very selective with who they take with those 10 spots to finish strong. I feel like Buie is the type player we should be taking at the moment instead of Young. Young might turn out to be great but I think we can all agree that Buie is a better prospect. Hopefully the staff doesn't stop recruiting Buie after Young's commitment.

See now we're getting somewhere. I agree on the Power commitment, I was skeptical about that offer as well. Young definitely has the speed to be dangerous on the field and has versatility to play slot, RB, PR/KR possibly even could be converted to CB. Yeah he could bust but if you're gonna gamble on a player, one with this much versatility is a good gamble. Harris I like in the limited film I've seen on him. I don't think they will stop recruiting Buie unless they have an idea that there is no way we're going to be able to land him.