Last years record was not an reflection of talent

[Orange_Crush]

Actually, your secondary might be the worst in the SEC, and not simply because of coaching. Your LBs are in the back of the pack in the SEC as well.

No doubt, Tennessee had more talent than their record would indicate. But there are still some major issues that go beyond coaching.

Seems to me someone's trying to move the goalline.

 

[sjt18]

Tennessee does not have a linebacker who would start at Alabama, Florida, LSU, Georgia, South Carolina, or A&M. MSU is a toss-up.

They don't have a DB that would start at any of those schools, and Ole Miss and Arkansas would be toss-ups.

AJ could start at any of those schools including Bama.

UT has DB's that could be developed into starters at any of those schools. Several of them competed for those players as recruits... that you now say aren't as talented as they were when they wanted them.

 

[99gator]

AJ could start at any of those schools including Bama.

UT has DB's that could be developed into starters at any of those schools. Several of them competed for those players as recruits... that you now say aren't as talented as they were when they wanted them.

Aj wouldn't play at Florida. No way

 

[Orange_Crush]

Ok, here's a different way to look at this.

Where would Tennessee rank in overall talent in the sec?

What sec teams does Tennessee have a better roster than?

Tennessee does not have a linebacker who would start at Alabama, Florida, LSU, Georgia, South Carolina, or A&M. MSU is a toss-up.

They don't have a DB that would start at any of those schools, and Ole Miss and Arkansas would be toss-ups.

I quoted the post I was responding to. You might want to look up the term "straw man" before you go posting clever pictures.

I read it, thus the question: Who here is trying to argue that UT has the best secondary in the SEC?

Considering your quote that I posted just above about UT having possibly the worst secondary... Do you still want to deny that you're moving the goal-post of the argument and building a straw man to demolish?

 

[bamawriter]

AJ could start at any of those schools including Bama.

AJ would be lucky to crack the 2 deep at Bama.

 

[Advol]

Alot of people will look at the upcoming year and say we are going to suck because of our 2012 record.


Why?


We clearly had the talent to beat FL and had them on the ropes so bad they went on fourth down in the middle of the field.

We were in the USC and GA game up to the very last minute.

And let me remind you....this was done with SAL as the DC and Dooley as the head coach. Let that sink in.


Now let's move to 2013. We will have the entire OL back. Bigger, meaner, stronger. And sick of losing!

We will have two RB's that have been under JG for two years now. Did you see how much they improved last year? Now they have 9 whole months to get even better.

And we will have Brian Randolph back and a few new faces at CB.

Plus! We won't have a moron for a DC. Watch the scoring drive USC had on fourth and 20 something and ask yourself if that would have happened with a real DC? I think no.


We thought we had the potential to win the East last year...and everyone is coming back except two WR's. Yes, losing CP hurts alot. But Hunter leaving doesnt really. He was never the same after his injury.

So guys. Have some hope for next year. We got an actual coach now. And recruits are looking and listening to us.


Head up. Be proud. We will come back.

Go Vols!

:lolabove: What it the wide wide world of sports are you saying??

Our record was the direct relection of our talent.
A gunslinger QB that threw it all over the yard and then complained on the sideline to all else that would listen.
A secondary that had to be the worst in the SEC if not the nation.
A LB and secondary core that had to be the SLOWEST in the history of UT.
A WR core dropped waay too many balls.
A mediore Running Back at best.....

NO Reflection here.........we wuz starrin in a mirror that had been cracked.

I pay NO attention to the Stars beside their name before they arrive on campus, I am much more impressed on what they do on the field.

 

[sjt18]

Actually, SEC offenses were better on average this year over last. So that has something to do with it.

Look at UT's schedule. The offenses they faced were NOT better than those they faced on the whole in '11. They did not face an offense even close to as good as Arkansas was in '11.

And you are arguing a case I didn't make. I never said they became less talented. Wilcox did a better job with average talent than Sunseri did. Tennessee still gave up big plays under Wilcox, but not as many. By being in position, the Vols stopped most plays before they turned into foot races, but when they weren't in the right spot, they never had the speed to recover. Just because they did a better job up front doesn't mean they were any faster with Wilcox as DC.

LOL@ this.

This is PRECISELY the argument you've been making. They WEREN'T faster under Wilcox... they were AS FAST or faster under Sal. That's the point. UT had sufficient talent to be mid-pack under Wilcox and were last by a wide margin under Sunseri... yet you claim that a coaching change won't make them mid-pack again.

BTW, mid-pack this year with UT's O would have had them in contention for the East.

 

[bamawriter]

I read it, thus the question: Who here is trying to argue that UT has the best secondary in the SEC?

Considering your quote that I posted just above about UT having possibly the worst secondary... Do you still want to deny that you're moving the goal-post of the argument and building a straw man to demolish?

Quote a post of mine that assumes that anyone said UT had the best secondary in the SEC. Several posters have argued that Tennessee's secondary is more talented than the coaching made it appear; I argued that they aren't that talented.

Again, look up the term "straw man", as you were the one who just built one.

 

[bamawriter]

Look at UT's schedule. The offenses they faced were NOT better than those they faced on the whole in '11. They did not face an offense even close to as good as Arkansas was in '11.

Just taking into account the teams UT played, Bama, Florida, UGA, and USCe all improved their offensive numbers over last year.

This is PRECISELY the argument you've been making. They WEREN'T faster under Wilcox... they were AS FAST or faster under Sal. That's the point. UT had sufficient talent to be mid-pack under Wilcox and were last by a wide margin under Sunseri... yet you claim that a coaching change won't make them mid-pack again.

No, it's not. The players were just as slow under Sal as they were under Wilcox. Wilcox's scheme and playcalling reduced the number of situations where the lack of speed became an issue. But, there were still numerous times under Wilcox where UT's LBs and DBs were destroyed in a footrace. It simply happened more often under Sunseri.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Quote a post of mine that assumes that anyone said UT had the best secondary in the SEC. Several posters have argued that Tennessee's secondary is more talented than the coaching made it appear; I argued that they aren't that talented.

Again, look up the term "straw man", as you were the one who just built one.

I don't have to look it up. I used it because I know the definition. A straw man is the creation of an argument that was never made, for the purpose of defeating said argument instead of the one that was originally made.

The original poster, and several others made the argument that UT's secondary is better than the coaching made it appear, yes. Your response to that assertion was to show that UT's defensive secondary was not as good Bama's or Florida's-- which was not the argument in question. To compound the issue, this was after you became the first response in this thread, making the assertion that UT's secondary is the worst in the SEC.

Edit:

A straw man argument occurs in the context of a debate―formal or informal―when one side attacks a position―the "straw man"―not held by the other side, then acts as though the other side's position has been refuted.

Logical Fallacy: Straw Man

 

[bamawriter]

The original poster, and several others made the argument that UT's secondary is better than the coaching made it appear, yes. Your response to that assertion was to show that UT's defensive secondary was not as good Bama's or Florida's-- which was not the argument in question. To compound the issue, this was after you became the first response in this thread, making the assertion that UT's secondary is the worst in the SEC.

You are talking out of both sides of your face. As you noted, my response to the OP asserted that Tennessee's secondary was the worst in the SEc, but I did not mention Bama or Florida:

Actually, your secondary might be the worst in the SEC, and not simply because of coaching. Your LBs are in the back of the pack in the SEC as well.

No doubt, Tennessee had more talent than their record would indicate. But there are still some major issues that go beyond coaching.

Care to reference any other statements I never made?

 

[Orange_Crush]

You are talking out of both sides of your face. As you noted, my response to the OP asserted that Tennessee's secondary was the worst in the SEc, but I did not mention Bama or Florida:



Care to reference any other statements I never made?

See my above edit. I must have been editing while you were typing.

A straw man argument occurs in the context of a debate―formal or informal―when one side attacks a position―the "straw man"―not held by the other side, then acts as though the other side's position has been refuted.

Logical Fallacy: Straw Man

What statement have I referenced to you that you have never made?

 

[bamawriter]

What statement have I referenced to you that you have never made?

You said I responded to the OP and "several posters" by claiming that UT's players aren't as good as Bama's or Florida's. You'd have to go to Page 6 of this thread before you even see me post the word "Bama", and that was in direct response to a statement Sal Sunseri made. I didn't make any specific comparison between teams until Page 12, and that was when the Gator asked for that exact kind of comparison.

So, your entire premise is 100% false. I did not respond to posts about UT's talent level by making non sequitur comparisons between UT's players and Alabama or Florida.

 

[VolBeef88]

:lolabove: What it the wide wide world of sports are you saying??

Our record was the direct relection of our talent.
A gunslinger QB that threw it all over the yard and then complained on the sideline to all else that would listen.
A secondary that had to be the worst in the SEC if not the nation.
A LB and secondary core that had to be the SLOWEST in the history of UT.
A WR core dropped waay too many balls.
A mediore Running Back at best.....

NO Reflection here.........we wuz starrin in a mirror that had been cracked.

I pay NO attention to the Stars beside their name before they arrive on campus, I am much more impressed on what they do on the field.

Well then you're an idiot. Coaching matters at all levels. Ask the Saints. I don't care how talented a player is, if they're in the wrong spot and don't know the scheme and are badly coached they will not succeed. Period
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[VolBeef88]

Ok dumbass bammerwriter and gator goob. What this thread is saying is that even though our talent level is down compared to our historical levels, it's not as bad as our record showed and we should have won more games. See, not that hard.
Now why don't the 2 of you go take a nap together on a train track.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[Orange_Crush]

You said I responded to the OP and "several posters" by claiming that UT's players aren't as good as Bama's or Florida's. You'd have to go to Page 6 of this thread before you even see me post the word "Bama", and that was in direct response to a statement Sal Sunseri made. I didn't make any specific comparison between teams until Page 12, and that was when the Gator asked for that exact kind of comparison.

So, your entire premise is 100% false. I did not respond to posts about UT's talent level by making non sequitur comparisons between UT's players and Alabama or Florida.

Patently false. Your very first response, specifically to the OP's assertion that we are not as bad as our record would indicate, was to state that UT's secondary is the worst in the SEC, making a non-sequitur comparison with every other team in the SEC, including Bama and Florida.

The OP's argument was not that we are great, just better than we looked. In response, you decided to make it an argument about where we rank in the SEC. You either:

1. Misunderstood and/or misrepresented his point, or,
2. Decided to just take it as a soapbox to bash our defense for the sake of bashing our defense, as opposed to discussing the merits of the OP's points.

So... In responding to a potential debating point by side-stepping the actual argument made, in favor of an entirely different argument, what would you call it? (Hint: I quoted the definition for you.)

 

[99gator]

Ok dumbass bammerwriter and gator goob. What this thread is saying is that even though our talent level is down compared to our historical levels, it's not as bad as our record showed and we should have won more games. See, not that hard.
Now why don't the 2 of you go take a nap together on a train track.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

i didn't disagree with that.

the op was making an argument comparing tennessee to florida, georgia and south carolina.

that's a different story than being better than your record

 

[bamawriter]

Patently false. Your very first response, specifically to the OP's assertion that we are not as bad as our record would indicate, was to state that UT's secondary is the worst in the SEC, making a non-sequitur comparison with every other team in the SEC, including Bama and Florida.

So, at first I made comparisons to Alabama and Florida, but now it was to the entire SEC. Someone's hedging...

The OP's argument was not that we are great, just better than we looked. In response, you decided to make it an argument about where we rank in the SEC. You either:

1. Misunderstood and/or misrepresented his point, or,
2. Decided to just take it as a soapbox to bash our defense for the sake of bashing our defense, as opposed to discussing the merits of the OP's points.

So... In responding to a potential debating point by side-stepping the actual argument made, in favor of an entirely different argument, what would you call it? (Hint: I quoted the definition for you.)

You should also go back an look at the OP. He specifically mentioned several teams and UT's performance against them, arguing that coaching, and not talent, was the difference between UT and those teams. I argued that Tennessee does not have the talent that those teams do. Thus, my statement was completely in line with his argument.

Here are the specific passages from the OP:

We clearly had the talent to beat FL and had them on the ropes so bad they went on fourth down in the middle of the field.

We were in the USC and GA game up to the very last minute.

And let me remind you....this was done with SAL as the DC and Dooley as the head coach. Let that sink in.


Plus! We won't have a moron for a DC. Watch the scoring drive USC had on fourth and 20 something and ask yourself if that would have happened with a real DC? I think no.

You made a statement that wasn't correct. For all I know, you started out by confusing my comments with someone else's. Either way, rather than simply saying "my bad", you've continued to run with this complete falsehood to the point that you're altering your accusation.

And in the end, it's not even a big deal. I'm only continuing to prove you wrong on it because you're being such a prick about it. If you'd simply said "I misunderstood" or "I got confused", I'd have said "No worries" and that would have been it.

 

[Orange_Crush]

So, at first I made comparisons to Alabama and Florida, but now it was to the entire SEC. Someone's hedging...



You should also go back an look at the OP. He specifically mentioned several teams and UT's performance against them, arguing that coaching, and not talent, was the difference between UT and those teams. I argued that Tennessee does not have the talent that those teams do. Thus, my statement was completely in line with his argument.

Here are the specific passages from the OP:



You made a statement that wasn't correct. For all I know, you started out by confusing my comments with someone else's. Either way, rather than simply saying "my bad", you've continued to run with this complete falsehood to the point that you're altering your accusation.

And in the end, it's not even a big deal. I'm only continuing to prove you wrong on it because you're being such a prick about it. If you'd simply said "I misunderstood" or "I got confused", I'd have said "No worries" and that would have been it.

You know what, as opposed to the 1001 smart*** comments that have come to mind, instead let me just say that I apologize for the misunderstanding. :hi:

 

[bamawriter]

You know what, as opposed to the 1001 smart*** comments that have come to mind, instead let me just say that I apologize for the misunderstanding. :hi:

No worries.

 

[JACK8254]

Alot of people will look at the upcoming year and say we are going to suck because of our 2012 record.


Why?


We clearly had the talent to beat FL and had them on the ropes so bad they went on fourth down in the middle of the field.

We were in the USC and GA game up to the very last minute.

And let me remind you....this was done with SAL as the DC and Dooley as the head coach. Let that sink in.


Now let's move to 2013. We will have the entire OL back. Bigger, meaner, stronger. And sick of losing!

We will have two RB's that have been under JG for two years now. Did you see how much they improved last year? Now they have 9 whole months to get even better.

And we will have Brian Randolph back and a few new faces at CB.

Plus! We won't have a moron for a DC. Watch the scoring drive USC had on fourth and 20 something and ask yourself if that would have happened with a real DC? I think no.


We thought we had the potential to win the East last year...and everyone is coming back except two WR's. Yes, losing CP hurts alot. But Hunter leaving doesnt really. He was never the same after his injury.

So guys. Have some hope for next year. We got an actual coach now. And recruits are looking and listening to us.


Head up. Be proud. We will come back.

Go Vols!

If Mr Bamboo had left the defense alone, we would have won 8 games. With our o , all we needed to be was below average, to win 8. We were horrible