Latest Coronavirus - Yikes

#120,251
#120,251
Rasputin_Vol said:
From my point of view, this mandate to get jabbed is a change in the agreement when these people were hired. I don't think any of these people expected to have to agree to a vaccine mandate upon hiring. Had that been the case, then I might (might) agree with your line of thinking. I think saying breach of contract would be a bit extreme, but it certainly represents a rules change in the middle of the game.
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utvolpj said:
Happens all the time. Where's the rule that can't happen? If you don't like the terms of employment then find something else
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NY court seems to agree with exactly what I had been saying.

A New York Court Just Reinstated Fired Unvaccinated Workers – What That Could Mean For Workers Across The Country

Second, the NYC Department of Health and Mental Hygiene violated the separation of powers doctrine. This occurred because the vaccination mandate unilaterally and indefinitely changed the terms of the Petitioners’ employment. The court stated that these were powers that the NYC Department of Health and Mental Hygiene shouldn’t have.
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Third, the vaccination mandate was effectively a legal mandate that affected the Petitioners’ conditions of employment and that the Health Commissioner of NYC didn’t have the authority to make changes to those conditions for employment. The Respondents relied on prior case law upholding vaccination requirements among healthcare workers. The court distinguished those cases because those healthcare workers had always been required to be vaccinated as a condition of employment. But this was the first time the Petitioners had ever had a vaccination requirement placed on them.
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#120,253
#120,253
DancingOutlaw said:
The problem in this instance is that the free market choices were perverted by the government. Their mandate upon any "federal contractor" meant entire industries were unilaterally doing the same thing. If your employer has a dress code you don't like you just leave and find another place to work. If you're a nurse and you didn't like the vax mandate at your hospital, tough **** because they're all being forced to do it. So are all the doctors/nursing homes/clinics/insurance companies/etc. that have ties to Medicare/Medicaid. Your degree and experience suddenly become worthless to the entire market. That is not a normal choice for an employee to make. And further you lost any leverage you had as an in demand employee because the government is standing behind the employers telling them if they keep you they can kiss their fed money goodbye. Individuals stood no chance.
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This is such a simple concept to understand. These people act like the unvaccinated with specialized skills could just quit their job and go across the street and be able to do the same job. This would have been a career killer for many folks.
 
#120,254
#120,254
utvolpj said:
That's NYC doing it not the employer. It's also more likely to fail under the equal protection than anybody else imo
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NYC was the employer also, sir. The ruling also covered city employees as well as those mandated in the private sector. So if the city can't change terms of employment in the manner that it did on its own workers, what makes you think that a private company can change the terms of employment with regards to this?

And with regards to equal protection...

Fourth, firing the Petitioners deprived them of equal protection under the law as provided for by the NY Constitution. This was because athletes, performers and artists could be exempted from the vaccination requirement, but the Petitioner could not.
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#120,255
#120,255
Rasputin_Vol said:
NYC was the employer also, sir. The ruling also covered city employees as well as those mandated in the private sector. So if the city can't change terms of employment in the manner that it did on its own workers, what makes you think that a private company can change the terms of employment with regards to this?

And with regards to equal protection...
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I've always made my posts about private employers. There was no mention but being in NYC they're likely union. Changing the terms of employment isn't a thing in the private sector unless there's some kind of contract
 
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#120,256
#120,256
utvolpj said:
I've always made my posts about private employers.
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And my point has been that these mandates were not about the rights of employers or the private sector. It is obvious that the mandates were politically driven and that the .gov played a part in driving the decisions that the private sector made. Fascism or corporatism... .gov colluding with private sector or influencing the private sector.
utvolpj said:
Changing the terms of employment isn't a thing in the private sector unless there's some kind of contract
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From an ethical standpoint, its rather shi**y that it is acceptable for many of you that you should be allowed to change terms of employment capriciously with regards to a medical procedure.
 
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#120,257
#120,257
Rasputin_Vol said:
And my point has been that these mandates were not about the rights of employers or the private sector. It is obvious that the mandates were politically driven and that the .gov played a part in driving the decisions that the private sector made. Fascism or corporatism... .gov colluding with private sector or influencing the private sector.

From an ethical standpoint, its rather shi**y that it is acceptable for many of you that you should be allowed to change terms of employment capriciously with regards to a medical procedure.
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Especially when the said treatment was, at the time, authorized only as "emergency use. "
 
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#120,258
#120,258
Has Covid morphed into a new kind of fatal disease? Deaths and hospitalizations are falling in the U.S. - NewsBreak

The data show that things are improving. But don’t ask the experts. Because there’s a chance that things might possibly still get worse!!!!

And it’s good that their expert doesn’t actually know the real science. He says "If you had Covid, say six to four months ago, you're going to have less protection against hospitalization than if you were vaccinated. The duration and the robustness of protection wanes a lot more quickly if all you rely on is natural immunity."

When the actual science….
SARS-CoV-2-The Role of Natural Immunity: A Narrative Review - PubMed
Says “valuable protection induced by the natural immunity after COVID-19, which seems comparable or superior to the one induced by anti-SARS-CoV-2 vaccination. Consequently, vaccination of the unvaccinated COVID-19-recovered subjects may not be indicated.”
 
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#120,259
#120,259
newyorkvol said:
Has Covid morphed into a new kind of fatal disease? Deaths and hospitalizations are falling in the U.S. - NewsBreak

The data show that things are improving. But don’t ask the experts. Because there’s a chance that things might possibly still get worse!!!!

And it’s good that their expert doesn’t actually know the real science. He says "If you had Covid, say six to four months ago, you're going to have less protection against hospitalization than if you were vaccinated. The duration and the robustness of protection wanes a lot more quickly if all you rely on is natural immunity."

When the actual science….
SARS-CoV-2-The Role of Natural Immunity: A Narrative Review - PubMed
Says “valuable protection induced by the natural immunity after COVID-19, which seems comparable or superior to the one induced by anti-SARS-CoV-2 vaccination. Consequently, vaccination of the unvaccinated COVID-19-recovered subjects may not be indicated.”
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to this point - read this today

Now, he said, "Covid deaths don't all look the same." While "baked-in immunity" may keep the most severe cases at a minimum, it is clear that Covid can wreak havoc on the body long after the infection has cleared.

"Somebody could have Covid and have a heart attack, and the primary cause of death is listed as a heart attack because that's what really brought them to the hospital," Faust said.

But, he added, "we'll never know to what degree Covid triggered that heart attack."

Covid deaths and hospitalizations are falling in the U.S.
 
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#120,260
#120,260
volinbham said:
to this point - read this today

Now, he said, "Covid deaths don't all look the same." While "baked-in immunity" may keep the most severe cases at a minimum, it is clear that Covid can wreak havoc on the body long after the infection has cleared.

"Somebody could have Covid and have a heart attack, and the primary cause of death is listed as a heart attack because that's what really brought them to the hospital," Faust said.

But, he added, "we'll never know to what degree Covid triggered that heart attack."

Covid deaths and hospitalizations are falling in the U.S.
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So basically... if I die in a car crash 10 years from now... it could be COVID related.
 
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#120,263
#120,263
volfanhill said:
Or blamed on the vax....bc that's how everyone on both sides is behaving
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The only thing for certain is that this whole shenanigan was wreaked by terrible "scientific evidence," political missteps, and pharmaceutical monetary influence.

It's super-hard for me, because I'm a nerdy doc that was educated to practice evidence- based medicine. This is the first real crisis I have faced that has caused me to seriously question the institutions I have counted on for reliable information, while left discouraged that so many other sources were disparaged or discredited without any real data.
 
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#120,264
#120,264
kiddiedoc said:
The only thing for certain is that this whole shenanigan was wreaked by terrible "scientific evidence," political missteps, and pharmaceutical monetary influence.
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Let's look at each of these items...
1. "terrible "scientific evidence": They didn't use science at all
2. political missteps: No, those were political steps... calling them missteps assumes that it was accidental and/or innocent mistakes
3. pharmaceutical monetary influence: ding ding... you got that one right on the nose

kiddiedoc said:
It's super-hard for me, because I'm a nerdy doc that was educated to practice evidence- based medicine. This is the first real crisis I have faced that has caused me to seriously question the institutions I have counted on for reliable information, while left discouraged that so many other sources were disparaged or discredited without any real data.
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No disrespect to you personally... but I will never be able to look at the medical profession the same way again. I'm hesitant about even getting a tetanus shot right now.
 
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#120,265
#120,265
kiddiedoc said:
The only thing for certain is that this whole shenanigan was wreaked by terrible "scientific evidence," political missteps, and pharmaceutical monetary influence.

It's super-hard for me, because I'm a nerdy doc that was educated to practice evidence- based medicine. This is the first real crisis I have faced that has caused me to seriously question the institutions I have counted on for reliable information, while left discouraged that so many other sources were disparaged or discredited without any real data.
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Appeals to authority replaced actual medical evidence. Early on, the first 2-3 months, it was understandable to look to the “experts” for their opinion. But I’ve said and posted on here before, expert opinion is the least reliable form of medical evidence. We now have over 2.5 years of actual data and research (though VERY few RCT’s) and articles like this continue appeals to emotion and authority instead of the actual data. And they ACTUALLY presented hard data, then came up with counter arguments to it based on less reliable sources. Unreal.
 
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#120,266
#120,266
Rasputin_Vol said:
Let's look at each of these items...
1. "terrible "scientific evidence": They didn't use science at all
2. political missteps: No, those were political steps... calling them missteps assumes that it was accidental and/or innocent mistakes
3. pharmaceutical monetary influence: ding ding... you got that one right on the nose


No disrespect to you personally... but I will never be able to look at the medical profession the same way again. I'm hesitant about even getting a tetanus shot right now.
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Thank you for clarifying, and I agree. Better wording would be: "lack of/inadequate" scientific evidence (we replaced that with "expert" opinions) and political "over"steps.

I am very sorry that my profession has largely failed you and the general population. Although I feel like I have tried to weigh the available evidence and data, make informed decisions, and discuss the situation openly -- even to the point that I was chastised and ridiculed, I understand the sentiment. I will assure you that there are still a plethora of good docs out there, most of whom were just afraid to let their voices be heard.
 
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#120,269
#120,269
CagleMtnVol said:
But thankful to be fully you know thing!

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I’m just waiting to see which will be declared the largest scam ever successfully ran on the public at large .( 1) climate change is man made and needs be fixed immediately before it’s too late through governments taxing its people (2) Covid was a natural virus that just mutated and big pharma along with world governments are going give us a new vaccine ( with multiple boosters) to keep us from getting and spreading it .
 
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#120,273
#120,273
davethevol said:
White House wants simultaneous COVID, flu shots: ‘This is why God gave us two arms’


The level of stupidity with this quote is unreal: "The good news is you can get both your flu shot and COVID shot at the same time. It's actually a good idea," said White House COVID-19 Response Coordinator Dr. Ashish Jha. "I really believe this is why God gave us two arms, one for the flu shot and the other one for the COVID shot."
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He did it again? This guy doesn't quit with this two arms BS...

 
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