Let's be honest about personal responsibility

#27
#27
Look, it is the person who believes that entitlements are the backbone of the economy!

Also, for the 1,000 time is is Friedrick von Hayek!
 
#31
#31
volinbham said:
I thought I'd speak on the above mentioned's level so I structured it in the same format.
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One good question deserves another, why do those who purport to be atheist and like to denegrate those of faith start out posts with phrases like; "Oh my God" or "Oh my dear Lord"??
 
#34
#34
CartoonObamaHealthCareSchoolSpeech.jpg
.
 
#35
#35
I am a HUGE fan of personal responsibility. But I am not unrealistic.

First, it is easy for a white guy making a good living, who comes from a nice middle class family, to bemoan the fact that so many others just can't seem to do what I have obviously done. Why can't they make the same personal sacrifices I had to make, such as studying in the dorms on a Friday night?

The problem with slavish adherence to principles of "personal responsiblity" is that you assume that on our world we all start from the same mark, have the same opportunities, and that it is generally correct to assume that two people taking the same path will end up in the same place.

This is not to say that we have to start from the identical place in order to assign the same value to "personal responsibility." But, it is to say that as the son of a man and woman, upper middle class, who were themselves the son and daughter of upper middle class families -- it is pretty obvious that 40 years into it I'm going to be whining about having to pay for the others, who began by being born into a family that did not stay together or that struggled at a level I cannot comprehend, in order to make ends meet.

Second, even if I were to ignore all of that, the reality is that our society has ALREADY CHOSEN to make it the law that a person in need of emergent care gets it. The question is, how do we make the system as efficient as we can?

I truly would prefer a system whereby everyone would pay into the system equally or some other completely equal process of paying for it. But, the truth is we don't, and so the choice you present is a false one.

It is not personal responsibility versus government entitlement.

It is simply a question of where in the economy we shift the cost of paying for the entitlement we already created.

Now, if you want to repeal the laws that guarantee everyone care, okay, let's debate that. But don't mischaracterize what the actual issue is with this legislation.
 
#36
#36
lawgator1 said:
it is pretty obvious that 40 years into it I'm going to be whining about having to pay for the others, who began by being born into a family that did not stay together or that struggled at a level I cannot comprehend, in order to make ends meet.
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one of my best friends actually comes from a place like that and yells about this louder than anyone on this forum. He came from nothing and has made a great life for himself. Please post your white guilt lecture elsewhere
 
#37
#37
lawgator1 said:
I am a HUGE fan of personal responsibility. But I am not unrealistic.

First, it is easy for a white guy making a good living, who comes from a nice middle class family, to bemoan the fact that so many others just can't seem to do what I have obviously done. Why can't they make the same personal sacrifices I had to make, such as studying in the dorms on a Friday night?
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Really can't call it a sacrifice when it was your only option.
 
#38
#38
lawgator1 said:
I am a HUGE fan of personal responsibility. But I am not unrealistic.

First, it is easy for a white guy making a good living, who comes from a nice middle class family, to bemoan the fact that so many others just can't seem to do what I have obviously done. Why can't they make the same personal sacrifices I had to make, such as studying in the dorms on a Friday night?

The problem with slavish adherence to principles of "personal responsiblity" is that you assume that on our world we all start from the same mark, have the same opportunities, and that it is generally correct to assume that two people taking the same path will end up in the same place.

This is not to say that we have to start from the identical place in order to assign the same value to "personal responsibility." But, it is to say that as the son of a man and woman, upper middle class, who were themselves the son and daughter of upper middle class families -- it is pretty obvious that 40 years into it I'm going to be whining about having to pay for the others, who began by being born into a family that did not stay together or that struggled at a level I cannot comprehend, in order to make ends meet.

Second, even if I were to ignore all of that, the reality is that our society has ALREADY CHOSEN to make it the law that a person in need of emergent care gets it. The question is, how do we make the system as efficient as we can?

I truly would prefer a system whereby everyone would pay into the system equally or some other completely equal process of paying for it. But, the truth is we don't, and so the choice you present is a false one.

It is not personal responsibility versus government entitlement.

It is simply a question of where in the economy we shift the cost of paying for the entitlement we already created.

Now, if you want to repeal the laws that guarantee everyone care, okay, let's debate that. But don't mischaracterize what the actual issue is with this legislation.
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The problem I see with this is it starts a slippery slope towards entitlement for everybody. I come from what you call a white middle class background and had opportunities. But I wasn't born into a wealthy family with a trust fund set up for me. Why shouldn't I get a mansion and cadillac when I grow up and not have to work for it? Others in this country have it, so should I because I wasn't fortunate enough to be born rich.

I think if people truly need help it is our moral obligation to help, but it shouldn't be automatic for anybody that doesn't feel life is fair. I had a good friend years ago that left an abusive marriage with two kids and needed assistance to get back on her feet. She is now self-supporting and doing fine. I think you would be hard pressed to find anybody on this board that disagrees with that situation.

Admit it or not, we have a system in this country where anybody can make it if they really want to. The industrial revolution made it possible for untold numbers of immigrants to make decent lives for themselves and their family when they came over here without a penny to their name.

I just don't buy what you are selling here.
 
#39
#39
utvolpj said:
one of my best friends actually comes from a place like that and yells about this louder than anyone on this forum. He came from nothing and has made a great life for himself. Please post your white guilt lecture elsewhere
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Don't be dismissive of what I'm saying because you know someone who overcame the odds. You don't know the thousands of others that didn't beat the odds because they are dead or are in jail.

I'm NOT saying their lack of productivity is excused. I'm just saying that its not a fair comparison when discussing the morality of "personal responsibility."




rjd970 said:
The problem I see with this is it starts a slippery slope towards entitlement for everybody. I come from what you call a white middle class background and had opportunities. But I wasn't born into a wealthy family with a trust fund set up for me. Why shouldn't I get a mansion and cadillac when I grow up and not have to work for it? Others in this country have it, so should I because I wasn't fortunate enough to be born rich.

I think if people truly need help it is our moral obligation to help, but it shouldn't be automatic for anybody that doesn't feel life is fair. I had a good friend years ago that left an abusive marriage with two kids and needed assistance to get back on her feet. She is now self-supporting and doing fine. I think you would be hard pressed to find anybody on this board that disagrees with that situation.

Admit it or not, we have a system in this country where anybody can make it if they really want to. The industrial revolution made it possible for untold numbers of immigrants to make decent lives for themselves and their family when they came over here without a penny to their name.

I just don't buy what you are selling here.
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I do not disagree with what you are saying at all. I am not justifying the initial decision to have the entitlement. I'm saying that once we decide to have it, it has to be paid for.

Education is an entitlement in this country. You don't hear people complaining that taxes to pay for No Child Left Behind is tantamount to the Kansas-Nebraska Act.
 
#40
#40
lawgator1 said:
Don't be dismissive of what I'm saying because you know someone who overcame the odds. You don't know the thousands of others that didn't beat the odds because they are dead or are in jail.

I'm NOT saying their lack of productivity is excused. I'm just saying that its not a fair comparison when discussing the morality of "personal responsibility."
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sure it is. You assume everyone here came from the same situation and has no clue how the others live. Same shtick as always just a different subject.

And thousands of others had the same chance to get out as he did but chose not to put in the work. Sounds like personal responsibility to me

lawgator1 said:
I'm saying that once we decide to have it, it has to be paid for.
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only the US gov't works that way. Most sane people figure out how to pay for something before deciding they have to have it. Leveraging our country's future for this is a stupid choice. Changes could have been made at a much lower price
 
#44
#44
lawgator1 said:
I am a HUGE fan of personal responsibility. But I am not unrealistic.

First, it is easy for a white guy making a good living, who comes from a nice middle class family, to bemoan the fact that so many others just can't seem to do what I have obviously done. Why can't they make the same personal sacrifices I had to make, such as studying in the dorms on a Friday night?

The problem with slavish adherence to principles of "personal responsiblity" is that you assume that on our world we all start from the same mark, have the same opportunities, and that it is generally correct to assume that two people taking the same path will end up in the same place.

This is not to say that we have to start from the identical place in order to assign the same value to "personal responsibility." But, it is to say that as the son of a man and woman, upper middle class, who were themselves the son and daughter of upper middle class families -- it is pretty obvious that 40 years into it I'm going to be whining about having to pay for the others, who began by being born into a family that did not stay together or that struggled at a level I cannot comprehend, in order to make ends meet.

Second, even if I were to ignore all of that, the reality is that our society has ALREADY CHOSEN to make it the law that a person in need of emergent care gets it. The question is, how do we make the system as efficient as we can?

I truly would prefer a system whereby everyone would pay into the system equally or some other completely equal process of paying for it. But, the truth is we don't, and so the choice you present is a false one.

It is not personal responsibility versus government entitlement.

It is simply a question of where in the economy we shift the cost of paying for the entitlement we already created.

Now, if you want to repeal the laws that guarantee everyone care, okay, let's debate that. But don't mischaracterize what the actual issue is with this legislation.
Click to expand...

Ummm - it was a joke thread mocking the stereotypes you and the others mentioned use to characterize the "opposition".

Thanks for playing along.
 
#45
#45
lawgator1 said:
Education is an entitlement in this country. You don't hear people complaining that taxes to pay for No Child Left Behind is tantamount to the Kansas-Nebraska Act.
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I'm actually for the abolishment of the Department of Education because education is like healthcare, a states issue per the 10th Amendment.
 
#46
#46
The arguement of not everyone has the same advantages or we are a product of our enviroment is so played.

My father immigrated to this country when he was 5 and raised in the slums of Brooklyn by his grandmother and a deaf aunt. He made the choice to get an education and a job. The result was a nice career with IBM and a middle class lifestyle. His sister went to school and elevated her life. His brother from the same enviroment died at 45 when his liver exploded because he decided to drink all day and ride around the projects on a ten speed.

I foolishly dropped out of college. I didn't ask for a handout. I went to work. Fortunately I made choices later in life where now I have a good career and make a nice 6 figure salary. My brother from the same enviroment decided to knock up his high school girlfriend, had 3 kids by age 22 and another kid two years later with a different woman. He's trying to change his path but a lot of his life is wreck.

I have compassion for my brother and had it for my uncle. If they were in dire straits I would help them. But why should I or anyone else bail them out of their situation? They made their bed, they have to sleep in it. Too many people want to blame the system or their parents or the government. Those people are simply lazy, too lazy to change their ways.
 
#48
#48
This is the problem with your line of thinking in this particular situation. Laws were passed so that anyone needing care would not be turned away and thus denied the care needed. A certain segment of the population chooses to abuse the system, this is one of the causes of growing premiums making insurance more expensive. Yet you are all for expanding this entitlement thus making it easier for even more to abuse the system while we foot the bill and yet somehow you believe this will save us money in the long run. Flawed logic IMO.
 
#49
#49
Most people who feel a sense of entitlement are too lazy to work for it. It's the easy way out, blame someone else for your shortcomings. Too bad we have a government who now caters to this way of thinking.
 
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