Let's compare Jesus and Muhammed (and debate homosexuality) (and Tombstone).

#326
#326
bamacheats said:
Dang it! I hate that I came late to this thread. I love talking Vatican and Nazis. Some of the info was incorrect, Vatican didn't just not act, they even used their churches as Jewish detention centers before they were trained off to the camps. Mostly in Poland.

I've been to Aushwitz, didn't see or read or hear about millions of Catholics being killed. Talked to a couple of survivors too, funny thing they didn't mention it either.
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Of the 11 million people killed during the Holocaust, six million were Polish citizens. Three million were Polish Jews and another three million were Polish Catholics.

Holocaust - Non-Jewish Holocaust Victims - Teachers Guide

Even in Germany, Catholic bishops protested the treatment of the Jews. Priests spoke out against Nazism and paid for it with their lives; laymen sheltered Jews.

Hitler came to power in 1933. In December of that year, Cardinal Michael Faulhaber, the "Lion of Munich," delivered a sermon in defense of biblical Judaism. When the persecution escalated, he spoke more directly to the point:

"History teaches us that God always punished the tormenters of…the Jews. No Roman Catholic approves of the persecutions of Jews in Germany."6

In October 1938, the chief rabbi of Munich told Cardinal Faulhaber that he feared his synagogue would be burned. The Cardinal provided a truck to transport the Torah scrolls and other important things from the synagogue for safekeeping in his palace. Nazi mobs gathered outside the palace, screaming, "Away with Faulhaber, the Jew- friend!"7

But Faulhaber and other bishops, including Conrad Cardinal Count von Preysing of Berlin and Bishop Clemens August Count von Galen of Muenster, continued to speak out in defense of the Jews in sermons and pastoral letters. (It was von Galen who went to Rome to plan the resettlement in Sao Paulo with Pope Pius XI.)

Faulhaber's books were banned, and in 1934 and 1938 attempts were made to assassinate him. He continued to preach against the Nazis until the end of the war.

In Stuttgart, the Resistance developed a well-organized underground to help the Jews to escape. In Hamburg, Raphaels Verein, a Catholic lay association, helped Jews to emigrate until they were shut down by the Gestapo in 1941.

Also in 1941, Fr. Bernard Lichtenberg, a priest at the St. Hedwig Cathedral Church in Berlin, declared in a sermon that he would include the Jews in his daily prayers "because synagogues have been set afire and Jewish businesses have been destroyed."8 He was arrested for subversive activities and sent first to prison and then to a concentration camp. He asked to be sent to the Jewish ghetto at Lodz, but died on his way to Dachau.

In July 1942, converted Jews and Jews married to Gentiles were exempted from deportation on the condition that the protests cease. The Protestants complied. The Archbishop of Utrecht issued another protest; the Germans deported all Catholics of Jewish blood, including Edith Stein. To make the message very clear, the Nazis continued to exempt the 9,000 Protestant Jews. Many Holocaust historians cite this as the definitive moment in which the Church understood that bold talk would only exacerbate the plight of the Jews.

In February 1943 massive deportations began throughout the country. With nothing left to lose, a pastoral letter was read in all Catholic churches, deploring the injustice and asserting the Church's obligation to testify to immutable laws. The pastoral cited the Pope's defense of the Jews, and concluded: "Should the refusal of collaboration require sacrifices from you, then be strong and steadfast in the awareness that you are doing your duty before God and your fellow men."27

To judge by the numbers, many Catholics heeded this admonition. By the end of the war, 110,000 Dutch Jews were deported; 10,000 were helped to escape; 40,000 were hidden. Of the latter, 15,000 survived. Forty-nine Catholic priests were killed for assisting Jews.

Catholic Heroes of the Holocaust
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Columbia University is not exactly pro-Catholic, either.

Do you have anymore revisionist history you would like to bring up?
 
#327
#327
IPorange said:
I watched the documentary. Maybe not the same one you are referring to. Should I bump the thread?

I don't think there is anything you can say about the shroud that I haven't heard before.

At any rate, why not just come out with it, instead of playing a juvenile game here? What would it matter if I had seen or not seen the documentary? Does it change the information you are subtly referencing that you apparently think is a bombshell?
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I just find it hilarious, that people who have never seen it (or other evidence) will come out and automatically say its a fake. Pretty hard to take someone serious when they come out of the gate lying how they have seen all the evidence
 
#329
#329
VolsNSkinsFan said:
I just find it hilarious, that people who have never seen it (or other evidence) will come out and automatically say its a fake. Pretty hard to take someone serious when they come out of the gate lying how they have seen all the evidence
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So I'm lying? Okay (this tells me a lot more about you). Dazzle me. Drop the evidence.
 
#331
#331
therealUT said:
Columbia University is not exactly pro-Catholic, either.

Do you have anymore revisionist history you would like to bring up?
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Were they killed because they were Catholic or because they were Polish? If its the latter their religion is irrelavant.
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#332
#332
bamacheats said:
Dang it! I hate that I came late to this thread. I love talking Vatican and Nazis. Some of the info was incorrect, Vatican didn't just not act, they even used their churches as Jewish detention centers before they were trained off to the camps. Mostly in Poland.

I've been to Aushwitz, didn't see or read or hear about millions of Catholics being killed. Talked to a couple of survivors too, funny thing they didn't mention it either.
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So how is a church supposed to defend itself from the Nazi army using one of its facilities as a "detention center", especailly when a church is usually the biggest structure and at the center of a town, making it ideal

You are also fooling yourself if you believe church grounds here in the south were not used for lynching
 
#333
#333
rjd970 said:
I just refuse to parse my words with figures like "99.9% sure". If I am 99.9% sure, I am...as well as anybody else...claiming certainty. Entertaining that last tenth of a percent as a possibility is silly. I.E...entertaining even the possibility of Zeus, with his lightening bolts and God buddies he hangs out with, as being true is silly. I feel the same way about any God.

Whether they admit it or not, everybody is an atheist to some degree, some just take it all the way.
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Not to play semantics, but you would agree that there is some relevance to the distinction between "some" (however infinitesimally small) and "none", especially when speaking of believing things to a point of certainty, right?

And if its possible that such a diety may exist - however infinitesimally small of a chance it may be - then doesn't the existence of that notion, in and of itself, warrant some honest consideration, albeit commensurate with its liklihood of being true?

From your posts, and your (rightful) strict adherence to the tenants of reason, is it safe to assume that you have done so, and considered the possibility?

And further, again if you've considered it, what would it mean if God (Judeo-Christian) did exist - on any level you wish to speak (i.e. personally, societally, etc.)?

I am genuinely interested to hear how you might have processed the notion that it could be true - no sarcasm.
 
#337
#337
Tenacious D said:
Not to play semantics, but you would agree that there is some relevance to the distinction between "some" (however infinitesimally small) and "none", especially when speaking of believing things to a point of certainty, right?

And if its possible that such a diety may exist - however infinitesimally small of a chance it may be - then doesn't the existence of that notion, in and of itself, warrant some honest consideration, albeit commensurate with its liklihood of being true?

From your posts, and your (rightful) strict adherence to the tenants of reason, is it safe to assume that you have done so, and considered the possibility?

And further, again if you've considered it, what would it mean if God (Judeo-Christian) did exist - on any level you wish to speak (i.e. personally, societally, etc.)?

I am genuinely interested to hear how you might have processed the notion that it could be true - no sarcasm.
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God, Allah, Zueus, Batman, and the Sorcerer's Stone all have roughly the same probability of 0.000000000000000001% of being true....ie, they don't exist. But again, you are parsing words to make a point that doesn't matter anyway. We aren't talking 50% chance here, we are debating less than 1%. So yes, I am certain.

Given the extent of attributes of said God, it would take a lot for me to consider his existence and what it would mean (for I am a very doubting Thomas). Are you asking what I think society would be like if it (Christianity) were true?

I don't know, probably somewhere between better than Islam and worse than Jainism, but it is hard to tell. If Jesus were to one day come down out of the clouds and show himself worlwide, I would stand in awe of Christianity as a science. If I were to die and have to explain myself at the pearly gates, my simple response would be "not enough evidence, not enough evidence, do what you gotta do".

I'm really not sure I understand the question you are asking.
 
#339
#339
tri_vol said:
Were they killed because they were Catholic or because they were Polish?
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Consider the fact that Poland was and still is one of the most predominantly Catholic nations in Europe (90%) and it is splitting hairs. Did Hitler kill Jews because they were Jewish or because they were Semites?

If it was the former, then they could have just renounced their religion, right?
 
#340
#340
therealUT said:
Columbia University is not exactly pro-Catholic, either.

Do you have anymore revisionist history you would like to bring up?
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Columbia university is not exactly the authority on the holocaust either. Columbia is very similar to the Vatican in one way though, they both brainwash a lot of people.

Citing some examples of individual Catholics helping Jews or being outspoken about Hitler's regime does not exonerate Pius or the Vatican; it simply means that they had more natural human compassion than their spiritual leader.

Not a single Catholic was in a camp soley because they were Catholic. Poles were killed because they were Poles, it just so happened that most were Catholic. Pius stood by and let it happen too. That's Christlike, watch as your flock gets murdered.
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#341
#341
therealUT said:
Consider the fact that Poland was and still is one of the most predominantly Catholic nations in Europe (90%) and it is splitting hairs. Did Hitler kill Jews because they were Jewish or because they were Semites?

If it was the former, then they could have just renounced their religion, right?
Click to expand...

Hitler killed Jews because of their race, not their religious conviction.
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#342
#342
VolsNSkinsFan said:
So how is a church supposed to defend itself from the Nazi army using one of its facilities as a "detention center", especailly when a church is usually the biggest structure and at the center of a town, making it ideal

You are also fooling yourself if you believe church grounds here in the south were not used for lynching
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One way that they could have defended themselves was by not cooperating. Another would have been to refuse the compensation from the Third Reich for using their church.

I'm not fooling myself, southern churches are no less hypocritical than churches anywhere else.
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#343
#343
bamacheats said:
Columbia university is not exactly the authority on the holocaust either.
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You are an authority, though...

bamacheats said:
Citing some examples of individual Catholics helping Jews or being outspoken about Hitler's regime does not exonerate Pius or the Vatican; it simply means that they had more natural human compassion than their spiritual leader.

Not a single Catholic was in a camp soley because they were Catholic. Poles were killed because they were Poles, it just so happened that most were Catholic. Pius stood by and let it happen too. That's Christlike, watch as your flock gets murdered.
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"Pius stood by". So did the rest of the world. England did not go to war with Germany because the Nazis were killing Jews. We stayed out of the war until we were attacked. Both England and the US had larger armies than the Vatican at the time.

Every institution in the world was trying to appease the Nazi machine at that time, in hopes that they would not be targeted. The only reason some institutions stopped their appeasement policies was because the Nazis did end up attacking them.
 
#344
#344
bamacheats said:
One way that they could have defended themselves was by not cooperating. Another would have been to refuse the compensation from the Third Reich for using their church.
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When is a choice not a choice?

The SS show up at the Church and say "we are using this facility". Anyone who says no is going to end up in that facility and eventually suffer the same fate; do you think Civil Disobedience was going to somehow slow that machine down?

As for the money, why not take it? You want to make a show of how the Church should have verbally reprimanded the Nazis; apparently you must think that would have made a dent (or even caused a chink in the armor); in that case, any money taken from the Nazi machine would have been money that could not be used for bullets, Panzers, V-2 rocket research, etc.

bamacheats said:
I'm not fooling myself, I'm no less hypocritical than anyone else.
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FYP
 
#345
#345
therealUT said:
You are an authority, though...



"Pius stood by". So did the rest of the world. England did not go to war with Germany because the Nazis were killing Jews. We stayed out of the war until we were attacked. Both England and the US had larger armies than the Vatican at the time.

Every institution in the world was trying to appease the Nazi machine at that time, in hopes that they would not be targeted. The only reason some institutions stopped their appeasement policies was because the Nazis did end up attacking them.
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Yes a lot of people stood by, most even, but not everyone. Inserting a sovereign government into the debate is a different subject. This thread was on religion. The Vatican is supposed to be the representation of God on earth. The U.S. nor England make that claim. The fact Pius, "a man of God" not only stood by, he actually collaborated with Hitler is so reprehensible that there isn't words to describe it.

Regarding your "every institution was trying to appease them" comment, I have no idea what you're talking about. That's a very general hyperbole.
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#346
#346
therealUT said:
When is a choice not a choice?

The SS show up at the Church and say "we are using this facility". Anyone who says no is going to end up in that facility and eventually suffer the same fate; do you think Civil Disobedience was going to somehow slow that machine down?

As for the money, why not take it? You want to make a show of how the Church should have verbally reprimanded the Nazis; apparently you must think that would have made a dent (or even caused a chink in the armor); in that case, any money taken from the Nazi machine would have been money that could not be used for bullets, Panzers, V-2 rocket research, etc.



FYP
Click to expand...

You came across as intelligent until this post.
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#347
#347
Not sure where you are getting your info but the pope was very against Nazis and German Catholics were largely against the Nazi party. Yes some bishops in Germany sided with Nazis but the pope made many statements against Nazis even before WWII started
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#348
#348
bamacheats said:
Yes a lot of people stood by, most even, but not everyone. Inserting a sovereign government into the debate is a different subject. This thread was on religion. The Vatican is supposed to be the representation of God on earth. The U.S. nor England make that claim. The fact Pius, "a man of God" not only stood by, he actually collaborated with Hitler is so reprehensible that there isn't words to describe it.

Regarding your "every institution was trying to appease them" comment, I have no idea what you're talking about. That's a very general hyperbole.
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Collaborated, because of the Reichskonkordat? Cardinal Faulhaber was quoted as stating the following at that time (1933):

With the concordat we are hanged, without the concordat we are hanged, drawn and quartered.
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collaborate: to cooperate with or willingly assist an enemy of one's country and especially an occupying force.

First, what part of the concord assisted in anything?

Second, where was any of this willing? It seems like it was coercion more than anything.

The US and the UK have willingly built a moral hegemony across the globe. They might not claim they "are god on earth" but they certainly have often done much to claim the moral high ground.

You don't like my hyperbole, I will break the institutions down:

The UK
The US
France
The USSR
Austria
The Lutheran Church in Germany
Many Protestant Churches across Germany
The Roman Catholic Church

What other institutions of any significant influence on Europe were left?

As for your other comment, it in no ways shows that you can counter against my argument that Civil Disobedience would not have worked. It in no way counters the argument that Pastors were coerced into letting the Nazis use their churches.

Had the Catholic Church decided to speak out against the Nazis, what measurable benefits would have come from it? Can you provide an estimate of how many lives might have been saved from a verbal reprimand?
 
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