Let's compare Jesus and Muhammed (and debate homosexuality) (and Tombstone).

Not sure where you are getting your info but the pope was very against Nazis and German Catholics were largely against the Nazi party. Yes some bishops in Germany sided with Nazis but the pope made many statements against Nazis even before WWII started
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I'm getting my info from years of research. The Pope was not against it, he didn't even publicly reprimand Hitler. What's Pius afraid of, death? Someone who claimed he will be resurrected to the right hand of God but is afraid to die to get there? Sounds a little fishy to me. He didn't even take action when members of his church living in Poland got massacred.
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You can look it up yourself. Judging how you called me an ass hole, I guess I have rattled you.

If you'd check the link, you'd know you were wrong about me lying about the video (can't believe I just had to type that). You didn't rattle me, you falsely accused me of lying. I don't see why I should be cordial with someone who assumes I'm lying from the outset.
 
You can look it up yourself. Judging how you called me an ass hole, I guess I have rattled you.

I'll also take this as an admission that you have no smoking gun evidence that proves it's authenticity.

Everything about the shroud is consistent with a manufactured holy relic of the Medieval period.
 
If you'd check the link, you'd know you were wrong about me lying about the video (can't believe I just had to type that). You didn't rattle me, you falsely accused me of lying. I don't see why I should be cordial with someone who assumes I'm lying from the outset.

Tell'em, PJ.
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Collaborated, because of the Reichskonkordat? Cardinal Faulhaber was quoted as stating the following at that time (1933):



collaborate: to cooperate with or willingly assist an enemy of one's country and especially an occupying force.

First, what part of the concord assisted in anything?

Second, where was any of this willing? It seems like it was coercion more than anything.

The US and the UK have willingly built a moral hegemony across the globe. They might not claim they "are god on earth" but they certainly have often done much to claim the moral high ground.

You don't like my hyperbole, I will break the institutions down:

The UK
The US
France
The USSR
Austria
The Lutheran Church in Germany
Many Protestant Churches across Germany
The Roman Catholic Church

What other institutions of any significant influence on Europe were left?

As for your other comment, it in no ways shows that you can counter against my argument that Civil Disobedience would not have worked. It in no way counters the argument that Pastors were coerced into letting the Nazis use their churches.

Had the Catholic Church decided to speak out against the Nazis, what measurable benefits would have come from it? Can you provide an estimate of how many lives might have been saved from a verbal reprimand?

No one has claimed the Pope could have physically stopped Hitler.

The issue is morality. That's why your introduction of governments doesn't work here. No doubt, U.S. and U.K. are "god on earth" but only in a sense as pertains to their interests.
The Vatican should advance morality according to the interests of God. Taking compensation makes them an accomplice. If it truly is an institution of God, they wouldn't need funds from Hitler.
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No one has claimed the Pope could have physically stopped Hitler.

The issue is morality. That's why your introduction of governments doesn't work here. No doubt, U.S. and U.K. are "god on earth" but only in a sense as pertains to their interests.
The Vatican should advance morality according to the interests of God. Taking compensation makes them an accomplice. If it truly is an institution of God, they wouldn't need funds from Hitler.
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Europe in the 30's and 40s was no beacon of morality, but the Pope and many bishops were firmly against Nazis and thats a fact. Like I said, there were Bishops who were on the Nazis side, and sure maybe some took money from Nazis, but it wasnt like the Church was saying to the the Nazis "hey over here! The Jews are hiding over here!!" "Oh you need space, well check out our big cathedral, you can fits lots of jews in here"
 
Europe in the 30's and 40s was no beacon of morality, but the Pope and many bishops were firmly against Nazis and thats a fact. Like I said, there were Bishops who were on the Nazis side, and sure maybe some took money from Nazis, but it wasnt like the Church was saying to the the Nazis "hey over here! The Jews are hiding over here!!" "Oh you need space, well check out our big cathedral, you can fits lots of jews in here"

Lol! Actually Catholics were instrumental in rounding up and locating Jews. That's an indictment on them personally though, there's no record that they were ordered to do it.

Pope JP issued an apology on behalf of Pius, what's the need for an apology if he was publicly against Hitler?
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No one has claimed the Pope could have physically stopped Hitler.

The issue is morality. That's why your introduction of governments doesn't work here. No doubt, U.S. and U.K. are "god on earth" but only in a sense as pertains to their interests.
The Vatican should advance morality according to the interests of God. Taking compensation makes them an accomplice. If it truly is an institution of God, they wouldn't need funds from Hitler.
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Not directly toward you, Bama - but why is the Catholic Churches failure to prevent, decry or denouncethe atrocities of the Nazi regime such a central point? They did not do enough - and as other entities / churches / nations similiarly failed to do - and its utterly inexcusable, and contrary to the tenants of their own espoused faith. What's left to debate, really?

If we are attempting to point to acts of pure evil being done to others on behalf of a church or particular deity - surely, there are already ample examples.

But, what's the larger point that we are attempting to make in proving these things true (i.e. that religion is evil, etc.)?
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Lol! Actually Catholics were instrumental in rounding up and locating Jews. That's an indictment on them personally though, there's no record that they were ordered to do it.

Pope JP issued an apology on behalf of Pius, what's the need for an apology if he was publicly against Hitler?
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I would like to hear some evidence of your "rounding up" story

Yes Pope John Paul did issue an apoligy because the Church didnt do enough to stop it
 
I would like to hear some evidence of your "rounding up" story

If you're really interested you should educate yourself. I've not only read it, I've heard it from two different survivors who were both detained by Catholics in Catholic churches until Nazis came to collect and compensate.

Amazingly neither had the least bit of anger to the people that detained them, they actually felt sorry for them.
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Not directly toward you, Bama - but why is the Catholic Churches failure to prevent, decry or denouncethe atrocities of the Nazi regime such a central point? They did not do enough - and as other entities / churches / nations similiarly failed to do - and its utterly inexcusable, and contrary to the tenants of their own espoused faith. What's left to debate, really?

If we are attempting to point to acts of pure evil being done to others on behalf of a church or particular deity - surely, there are already ample examples.

But, what's the larger point that we are attempting to make in proving these things true (i.e. that religion is evil, etc.)?
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Religion has amassed more bloodshed than any government. Evil has always been around, but religion makes the claim to be God's way, God's thinking, God's people, with God's blessing. Governments (other than Muslim) make no such claim. Governments are just as corrupt, but they are often held accountable eventually. No world power exists forever, and eventually even the great Estados Unidos will fall from the top spot.

What's left to debate? Misguided believers.

While churches and governments are both corrupt, the bigger the church gets the even more corrupt it gets. I see no problem with anyone worshipping God or not even believing in God, but anyone can worship in their home, or in their community, how they choose without feeding a machine like the Vatican that hides pedophiles.
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If you're really interested you should educate yourself. I've not only read it, I've heard it from two different survivors who were both detained by Catholics in Catholic churches until Nazis came to collect and compensate.

Amazingly neither had the least bit of anger to the people that detained them, they actually felt sorry for them.
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I am not doubting that some catholics probably did some bad things, and thats fantastic that they A) are alive and B) dont hold a grudge. I would like to hear some books names that you have researched throughout the years. I know the Poland president who was Catholic, worked with the Nazis

Have you read this story about this nun

Teresa Benedict of the Cross Edith Stein (1891-1942) - biography

Edith Stein was arrested by the Gestapo on 2 August 1942, while she was in the chapel with the other sisters. She was to report within five minutes, together with her sister Rosa, who had also converted and was serving at the Echt Convent. Her last words to be heard in Echt were addressed to Rosa: "Come, we are going for our people."

Together with many other Jewish Christians, the two women were taken to a transit camp in Amersfoort and then to Westerbork. This was an act of retaliation against the letter of protest written by the Dutch Roman Catholic Bishops against the pogroms and deportations of Jews. Edith commented, "I never knew that people could be like this, neither did I know that my brothers and sisters would have to suffer like this. ... I pray for them every hour. Will God hear my prayers? He will certainly hear them in their distress." Prof. Jan Nota, who was greatly attached to her, wrote later: "She is a witness to God's presence in a world where God is absent."

On 7 August, early in the morning, 987 Jews were deported to Auschwitz. It was probably on 9 August that Sister Teresia Benedicta a Cruce, her sister and many other of her people were gassed.
When Edith Stein was beatified in Cologne on 1 May 1987, the Church honoured "a daughter of Israel", as Pope John Paul II put it, who, as a Catholic during Nazi persecution, remained faithful to the crucified Lord Jesus Christ and, as a Jew, to her people in loving faithfulness

or this priest, who saved 6500 people

Hugh O'Flaherty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Or this story about the Cheif Rabbi in Rome who converted after the war because the way Catholic treated his people and he had a vision of Jesus during Yom kippur service

Israel Zolli - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Or this Bishop

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clemens_August_Graf_von_Galen
 
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While churches and governments are both corrupt, the bigger the church gets the even more corrupt it gets. I see no problem with anyone worshipping God or not even believing in God, but anyone can worship in their home, or in their community, how they choose without feeding a machine like the Vatican that hides pedophiles.
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Pedophiles are not exclusive to the catholic church, for example Bishop Eddie Long here in Atlanta. You wont see his story splashed on the cover of the NYTimes

That "Machine" does a lot of good in this world and has for centuries. Yes it has its blemishes but church's are run by humans and humans are not infallible. If you want to lump all 1 billion Catholics into one category because of the actions of a few, that your choice, but you should step back and look at the whole body of work that the Catholic Church has done and does on a daily basis
 
Religion has amassed more bloodshed than any government. Evil has always been around, but religion makes the claim to be God's way, God's thinking, God's people, with God's blessing. Governments (other than Muslim) make no such claim. Governments are just as corrupt, but they are often held accountable eventually. No world power exists forever, and eventually even the great Estados Unidos will fall from the top spot.

What's left to debate? Misguided believers.

While churches and governments are both corrupt, the bigger the church gets the even more corrupt it gets. I see no problem with anyone worshipping God or not even believing in God, but anyone can worship in their home, or in their community, how they choose without feeding a machine like the Vatican that hides pedophiles.
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So, who or what is it that you most ardently oppose?

God? The Vatican? Buddha? Government? Or isn't it easier just to say, "authority"?

If the latter, and it certainly appears to be, then we have left the theological, both altogether and quite literally......but I'd be interested to learn how you came to the conclusions you've reached.

Could you elaborate?
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Pedophiles are not exclusive to the catholic church, for example Bishop Eddie Long here in Atlanta. You wont see his story splashed on the cover of the NYTimes

That "Machine" does a lot of good in this world and has for centuries. Yes it has its blemishes but church's are run by humans and humans are not infallible. If you want to lump all 1 billion Catholics into one category because of the actions of a few, that your choice, but you should step back and look at the whole body of work that the Catholic Church has done and does on a daily basis

For some, this is akin to asking them to focus on the charitable contributions of a believer, in lieu of the fact that they committed murder.

What exactly does religion - any religion that is - benefit the world, as you see it?
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So, who or what is it that you most ardently oppose?

God? The Vatican? Buddha? Government? Or isn't it easier just to say, "authority"?

If the latter, and it certainly appears to be, then we have left the theological, both altogether and quite literally......but I'd be interested to learn how you came to the conclusions you've reached.

Could you elaborate?
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To believe in authority us to believe in chaos. Authority is necessary for order.

Major religion and major government can not coexist forever. Both tax their members heavily and eventually members will have to decide who to support. My take is that governments will eventually just take religion. If religion is of God then religion (1 or more?) will prevail. We'll see I guess.
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To believe in authority us to believe in chaos. Authority is necessary for order.

Major religion and major government can not coexist forever. Both tax their members heavily and eventually members will have to decide who to support. My take is that governments will eventually just take religion. If religion is of God then religion (1 or more?) will prevail. We'll see I guess.
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Religion is of man. Jesus made this point many times and voiced his displeasure with "religion".
 
Dang. April 15th is right around the corner and I haven't got my Church 1099 yet. How am I going to file my taxes?
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Major religion and major government can not coexist forever. Both tax their members heavily and eventually members will have to decide who to support.
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There is a fundamental difference between tithing and being taxed.

You can make the argument that church goers are coerced into their tithes: if they truly believe in their canon, then can they refuse to give and avoid damnation; however, if they truly believe, then they are not "deciding" to support anything. If they do not truly believe, then the threat of damnation is not strong enough to be coercion.

As for government taxes, the failure to pay the required amount leads directly to tangible punitive measures; it is coercion. The only way to "decide" not to pay is to either decide to revolt or decide it is better to spend time in jail.
 
For some, this is akin to asking them to focus on the charitable contributions of a believer, in lieu of the fact that they committed murder.

What exactly does religion - any religion that is - benefit the world, as you see it?
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Feed/clothe/shelter the poor Hospitals to care for the sick. Hospices to care for the dying. Nursing homes to care for the elderly, day care centers to care for the young. Care for those with substance abuse problems and mental illnesses and special needs All types of schools These are all done at home and in third world. They work with third world governments to help bring in basic necessities like clean water and toilets. They respond to natural disasters etc etc
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There is a fundamental difference between tithing and being taxed.

Not really. Passing a collection plate, for example, obligates people to donate out of fear of embarrassment. Megachurches are even collecting tax returns so they can estimate what amount should be tithed. That's a tax. A tax with no dividends. At least government provides a service.

People can have a church in their living room, their backyard, or even a community church. But my point is not about worship, its about megachurches. Eventually they will fall. Study Europe, as taxes went up, church membership went down. The same is already happening here. The south is about the only part left where church is a staple of life.
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Feed/clothe/shelter the poor Hospitals to care for the sick. Hospices to care for the dying. Nursing homes to care for the elderly, day care centers to care for the young. Care for those with substance abuse problems and mental illnesses and special needs All types of schools These are all done at home and in third world. They work with third world governments to help bring in basic necessities like clean water and toilets. They respond to natural disasters etc etc
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Let's compare the Vatican's contributions in each of those areas against the U.S.'s contributions. Membership and citizenship numbers are close enough.
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