Let's compare Jesus and Muhammed (and debate homosexuality) (and Tombstone).

[therealUT]

It doesn't add up because you don't have the Holy Spirit, I suspect.

Technically speaking, is it possible for anyone to receive the Holy Spirit?

According to Christian Doctrine and Canon, to believe in the scriptures, one needs the guidance of the Holy Spirit; yet, the Holy Spirit is not bestowed upon someone until they are baptized. Can a person really accept baptism if they do not fully believe? Therefore, would the Holy Spirit ever truly dwell in them?

 

[IPorange]

I have no idea. I know that mocking the holy spirit or something to that effect is an "unforgivable sin," yet all sin can be forgiven through Christ.

It's not clear to me the nature or working of the holy spirit.

 

[Gramps]

If you want to discuss circular logic, the gospels, and Christianity, have at it GS. Let me see if I remember this correctly:

1. To accept the Holy Spirit, one must be baptized.
2. To understand the scripture, one must receive guidance and interpretation from the Holy Spirit.
3. If one reads and understands the scriptures, they will choose to accept Christ and the Holy Spirit.

Something in there does not add up.

It doesn't add up because 1 and 3 are wrong.

1. One must accept Jesus as their saviour.

3. One has free will to accept Christ as their saviour or not.

 

[OJ]

Cornelius is one example of receiving the HG before baptism. Acts 10-44 to 48

 

[OJ]

John recieved the Holy Ghost while in his mothers womb.

 

[therealUT]

It doesn't add up because 1 and 3 are wrong.

1. One must accept Jesus as their saviour.

3. One has free will to accept Christ as their saviour or not.

How do you accept Jesus as your Savior if you do not believe?

How do you believe if you do not have the grace of the Holy Spirit?

 

[therealUT]

John recieved the Holy Ghost while in his mothers womb.

Book, chapter, and verse, please.

 

[OJ]

Luke 1=41

 

[therealUT]

Luke 1=41

Elizabeth was filled with the holy Spirit; not John. Also, this is fundamentally different from the Spirit that came down on the Pentecost and remained with Christians, according to Christian mythology.

The "holy Spirit" in this reference is the same "holy Spirit" that is referenced throughout the Old Testament; there is a stark distinction between that and receiving the Holy Spirit through baptism, as recognized through the Catechism.

 

[Gramps]

How do you accept Jesus as your Savior if you do not believe?

How do you believe if you do not have the grace of the Holy Spirit?

I did not say either one.

1. You have to believe to accept Jesus as your saviour.
One should accept Jesus as their lord and saviour then be baptized.

2. You stated that if "one reads and understands the scriptures, they will choose to accept Christ and the Holy Spirit."

Because someone reads the scriptures does not mean they will choose to accept Christ. It is one's free will to accept Christ or not.

 

[therealUT]

I did not say either one.

1. You have to believe to accept Jesus as your saviour.
One should accept Jesus as their lord and saviour then be baptized.

2. You stated that if "one reads and understands the scriptures, they will choose to accept Christ and the Holy Spirit."

Because someone reads the scriptures does not mean they will choose to accept Christ. It is one's free will to accept Christ or not.

How do you accept Jesus as Your Lord and Savior if you do not believe?

How do you believe if you are not filled with the Holy Spirit?

The Holy Spirit is a gift given by God's grace during Baptism.

This is a fundamentally agreed upon maxim from two millenia of Christian theologians.

 

[ridethelightening]

How do you accept Jesus as your Savior if you do not believe?

How do you believe if you do not have the grace of the Holy Spirit?

Hear, believe, repent, confess, be baptized. Sorry to interrupt your fun and jokes

 

[OJ]

How do you accept Jesus as Your Lord and Savior if you do not believe?

How do you believe if you are not filled with the Holy Spirit?

The Holy Spirit is a gift given by God's grace during Baptism.

This is a fundamentally agreed upon maxim from two millenia of Christian theologians.

Faith is what you got to have. Faith comes from hearing the word of God.

 

[utvolpj]

Hear, believe, repent, confess, be baptized. Sorry to interrupt your fun and jokes

and if the first step never happens you're just SOL? Sucks

 

[ridethelightening]

and if the first step never happens you're just SOL? Sucks

Good debate, I agree. I'm not God, though, so I don't have the answers.

Christ did command us to spread the Gospel to everyone. We need to try harder, maybe?

 

[therealUT]

Hear, believe, repent, confess, be baptized. Sorry to interrupt your fun and jokes

Pentecost
731 On the day of Pentecost when the seven weeks of Easter had come to an end, Christ's Passover is fulfilled in the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, manifest, given, and communicated as a divine person: of his fullness, Christ, the Lord, pours out the Spirit in abundance.

732 On that day, the Holy Trinity is fully revealed. Since that day, the Kingdom announced by Christ has been open to those who believe in him; in the humility of the flesh and in faith, they already share in the communion of the Holy Trinity. By his coming, which never ceases, the Holy Spirit causes the world to enter into the "last days," the time of the Church, the Kingdom already inherited though not yet consummated.

We have seen the true Light, we have received the heavenly Spirit, we have found the true faith; we adore the indivisible Trinity, who has saved us.
​

733 "God is Love" and love is his first gift, containing all others. "God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us."

734 Because we are dead or at least wounded through sin, the first effect of the gift of love is the forgiveness of our sins. The communion of the Holy Spirit in the Church restores to the baptized the divine likeness lost through sin.

735 He then, gives us the "pledge" or "first fruits" of our inheritance: the very life of the Holy Trinity, which is to love as "God [has] loved us." This love (the "charity" of 1 Cor 13) is the source of the new life in Christ, made possible because we have received "power" from the Holy Spirit.

Christ bestows the Holy Spirit through the Pentecost.

Cannot believe in Christ without the Holy Spirit.

Cannot have the Holy Spirit without Baptism.

Cannot be baptized without believing in Christ.

 

[therealUT]

Faith is what you got to have. Faith comes from hearing the word of God.

According to Christian Canon, you cannot know it is the word of God without the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

 

[OJ]

and if the first step never happens you're just SOL? Sucks

You still have till saturday the 21st.

 

[OJ]

According to Christian Canon, you cannot know it is the word of God without the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

I believe the Holy Spirit deals with all at some point. I believe he indwells us when we except Christ.

 

[BeecherVol]

If you want to discuss circular logic, the gospels, and Christianity, have at it GS. Let me see if I remember this correctly:

1. To accept the Holy Spirit, one must be baptized.Disagree
2. To expand your understanding of the scripture, one must receive guidance and interpretation from the Holy Spirit.
3. If one reads and understands the scriptures, they will understand andchoose or reject Christ and the Holy Spirit.

Something in there does not add up.

My thoughts.

 

[therealUT]

I believe the Holy Spirit deals with all at some point. I believe he indwells us when we except(sic) Christ.

Your belief is contrary to that of Christian Canon, Doctrine, and Tradition: the writings of the Catholic Church, Catholic Theologians, Calvin, Luther, C.S. Lewis, etc.

 

[therealUT]

My thoughts.

Baptism is, at its foundation, accepting the Holy Spirit (hence, the Jesus baptized with fire scripture). There are certain formal rites surrounding baptism; however, at least according to the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches, these rights are not requisite for one to be considered baptized, while accepting the Holy Spirit is.

To understand the scripture as the word of God, one must be guided by the Holy Spirit. There is simply nothing else one can use to do so. There is no empirical proof; there are not reams of substantiated testimony; there are not even solid and academically reliable histories of Jesus, his disciples, and/or the gospel writers. Even much of Paul's life is a mystery. According to Christian tradition, he was martyred; yet, that is no where in the Bible and cannot be found in any contemporary written accounts.

If one reads and understands the Bible as the word of God, then there is really not a choice. If I were convinced of the Bible's authority and divinity, I would believe in Jesus. If I simply understood it as allegorical mythology, which was evidently not the intent of the compilation, I would be misunderstanding its stated purpose; therefore, I would not understand it.

 

[Gramps]

How do you accept Jesus as Your Lord and Savior if you do not believe?

You must have faith and believe in God in order to accept Jesus as your Lord and Saviour


How do you believe if you are not filled with the Holy Spirit?

Through faith and hearing God's word .



The Holy Spirit is a gift given by God's grace during Baptism.

One is filled with the Holy Spirit at the time of regeneration. Baptism is a testimony that regeneration has taken place. .

 

[BeecherVol]

Baptism is, at its foundation, accepting the Holy Spirit (hence, the Jesus baptized with fire scripture). There are certain formal rites surrounding baptism; however, at least according to the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches, these rights are not requisite for one to be considered baptized, while accepting the Holy Spirit is.

To understand the scripture as the word of God, one must be guided by the Holy Spirit. There is simply nothing else one can use to do so. There is no empirical proof; there are not reams of substantiated testimony; there are not even solid and academically reliable histories of Jesus, his disciples, and/or the gospel writers. Even much of Paul's life is a mystery. According to Christian tradition, he was martyred; yet, that is no where in the Bible and cannot be found in any contemporary written accounts.

If one reads and understands the Bible as the word of God, then there is really not a choice. If I were convinced of the Bible's authority and divinity, I would believe in Jesus. If I simply understood it as allegorical mythology, which was evidently not the intent of the compilation, I would be misunderstanding its stated purpose; therefore, I would not understand it.

Thats your choice and no one can take that or add that to you either way.

Ephesians 2:8

"For by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

In regards to salvation/accepting the Word this is all that is required of me, its not asking me to wait for or find empirical proof to be convinced. Some will accept that, many will not.

 

[OJ]

One is filled with the Holy Spirit at the time of regeneration. Baptism is a testimony that regeneration has taken place. .

All we need to be saved is Jesus. He is an all sufficient savior.All I got to do is believe. The only unforgivable sin is unbelief.