Let's compare Jesus and Muhammed (and debate homosexuality) (and Tombstone).

#1,601
#1,601
JayVols said:
If God had wanted mindless robots, He could have created that. We have free will to choose, robots do not. That's what makes us special to Him.

Let me try to explain it this way. It is more real and special when someone chooses to love us and decide to share their lives with us by choice rather than an arranged marriage. It is genuine, pure not coerced or forced. If that makes any sense.
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Pre-determind freewill. He already knows our choices, correct? It's like wacthing a tivo game that you already have seen the final score.
 
#1,602
#1,602
JayVols said:
If God had wanted mindless robots, He could have created that. We have free will to choose, robots do not. That's what makes us special to Him.

Let me try to explain it this way. It is more real and special when someone chooses to love us and decide to share their lives with us by choice rather than an arranged marriage. It is genuine, pure not coerced or forced. If that makes any sense.
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It makes sense in a human context, which includes all of our human failings. It does not make sense in the context of a being that should be perfect and above all human failings.

I understand the free will argument. I understand the argument that that can and does lead to the harm that humans have imposed on other humans. I understand that a just and merciful god could and should judge those actions as not righteous and therefore institute punishments. I do not understand that same god choosing to place his own pride over all other actions, which is an idea that many believers of many different religions promote.
 
#1,605
#1,605
666 said:
Pre-determind freewill. He already knows our choices, correct? It's like wacthing a tivo game that you already have seen the final score.
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I have an answer, but it is very complicated, but I will try to be very brief. You probably will not accept it, but that's ok. It's enough for me. Each man must choose their own path.

I believe that God is all-knowing. That does not mean we are pre-programed and our lives are mapped out. He may know what our choices will be, but they are not made for us.

Like I said, these are my understandings. I claim no special insight or comprehension. It works for me. I can't and won't pressure others to adopt my views. I will express my views if someone wants to hear them. That's all I can do. Whether the listener agrees, disagrees, or ridicules me for my beliefs is up to that person. I will not argue stomp and fuss. They have as much right to their beliefs as I have to mine. I believe what I believe, and you believe what you believe. Angry responses toward belittlement of my beliefs gets me nowhere fast. Each has the privilige of choosing. Have a good one, sir.
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#1,608
#1,608
therealUT said:
It makes sense in a human context, which includes all of our human failings. It does not make sense in the context of a being that should be perfect and above all human failings.

I understand the free will argument. I understand the argument that that can and does lead to the harm that humans have imposed on other humans. I understand that a just and merciful god could and should judge those actions as not righteous and therefore institute punishments. I do not understand that same god choosing to place his own pride over all other actions, which is an idea that many believers of many different religions promote.
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My honest response is that my feeble mind is incapable of comprehending God and His complete nature. I have no special gift of comprehension, I simply believe and trust Him. Not avoiding, just honest.
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#1,609
#1,609
therealUT said:
It makes sense in a human context, which includes all of our human failings. It does not make sense in the context of a being that should be perfect and above all human failings.

I understand the free will argument. I understand the argument that that can and does lead to the harm that humans have imposed on other humans. I understand that a just and merciful god could and should judge those actions as not righteous and therefore institute punishments. I do not understand that same god choosing to place his own pride over all other actions, which is an idea that many believers of many different religions promote.
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Another thought just came to me. The reason I put a human example in my post is that's all I can understand. I try to reason things that may be unreasonable into terms that I can comprehend.

Good talk, fellas. Got to hit the hay, bus duty in the a.m. Look forward to more. Have a pleasant rest of the evening, all.
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#1,611
#1,611
BeecherVol said:
I hope when the day comes you can get the answers you seek under the best circumstances .

I appreciate the discussion.:hi:

Later Jay, hold it down to the east.:good!:
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Same to you all. TrUT, I sincerely hope you find your answers that satisfy you. It is my pleasure to chat with you. I'll conduct myself in the same manner whether you agree with me or not. You deserve as much respect as I do. If I can help in any way, just holler.

Beecher, as always, been a pleasure. I'll try to keep the east on her toes! Lol. Later.
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#1,613
#1,613
ridethelightening said:
Always curious why those that don't believe are so against those that do.
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I understand the premise for the statement, but imo I don't think non-believers are really "against those that do" as that would make it personal... and I don't believe that's generally the case. For the most part there is good discussion on this board. I can't really hold anything against someone on a personal level for having a different opinion that mine.
 
#1,614
#1,614
TXVOL07 said:
Cons:
None. Its Ali dude. You think I'm dumb enough to say something negative about that guy? Parkinson's or not, I dont wanna piss that dude off.


There, I compared em for ya.
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It was a great travesty when he changed his name from Cassius Marcellus Clay, his namesake was the man who claimed to have done more than any other man to end slavery in America and he had a good argument.

The black muslims got to Cassius and filled him with racial hatred and he changed his name to muhammed, the man responsible for more slavery than any other historical figure.

"I don't want no name of a white man."

Til this very day arabs and berbers still own black African slaves and none of the leaders of islam will condemn the practice.
 
#1,615
#1,615
gsvol said:
It was a great travesty when he changed his name from Cassius Marcellus Clay, his namesake was the man who claimed to have done more than any other man to end slavery in America and he had a good argument.

The black muslims got to Cassius and filled him with racial hatred and he changed his name to muhammed, the man responsible for more slavery than any other historical figure.

"I don't want no name of a white man."

Til this very day arabs and berbers still own black African slaves and none of the leaders of islam will condemn the practice.
Click to expand...

In what countries of the Arab world is slavery permitted? If I may ask...
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#1,617
#1,617
IBlvNTmWrk said:
I understand the premise for the statement, but imo I don't think non-believers are really "against those that do" as that would make it personal... and I don't believe that's generally the case. For the most part there is good discussion on this board. I can't really hold anything against someone on a personal level for having a different opinion that mine.
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Seems non-believers would be better served just calling believers idiots and moving on. The arguing to try to prove it seems pointless.
 
#1,618
#1,618
ridethelightening said:
Seems non-believers would be better served just calling believers idiots and moving on. The arguing to try to prove it seems pointless.
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The discussion can lead to greater understanding between both parties.

I am an agnostic theist, or more appropriately a deist; I am trying to understand what experiences, teachings, readings, etc. have made it possible for others to bridge the gap from simply theism to personal god religion.

There are certainly some who come in and try to argue aggressively or arrogantly for Christian belief over any other belief system/creed or over agnosticism and atheism; I have no problem matching that aggression and arrogance in dealing with those individuals. There are others who approach the topic with reasoned arguments or certain interpersonal claims, and they do very well in sharing those; with them, I meet them civilly and respectfully.

I read the Bible and the Koran daily. I have read most published works by C.S. Lewis and G.K. Chesterson. I have read Aquinas and Augustine; I've read Maritain and Alasdair MacIntyre, and am currently reading Plantinga. On the flip side, I have read Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, Hume, Russell, Nietsche, etc.

If there is a personal god, I would love to have a relationship with such a being. Unfortunately, in three decades, this relationship has never occurred, regardless of how much I have searched it out. I continue to read and search, but I have come to the logical probability that such a being either does not exist or wants no relationship with me. The latter, I cannot reconcile with the notion of an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent being, who is also purportedly all-merciful and wants everyone to know and worship him.

The philosophical inquiries aimed at establishing the absolute are, IMO, the most fascinating philosophical inquiries; yet, they, to include the theological apologia, are riddled with logical fallacies, that I have a hard time either accepting, due to the fallacy, or surmounting, due to a lack of empirical evidence to use as either proof or objection, (the circular logic regarding Holy Spirit, Christ, baptism, belief, and understanding).

Since I find these things fascinating, I also find certain views from individuals on this board fascinating (as well, I also find certain views down right unfounded and sad).
 
#1,619
#1,619
therealUT said:
The discussion can lead to greater understanding between both parties.

I am an agnostic theist, or more appropriately a deist; I am trying to understand what experiences, teachings, readings, etc. have made it possible for others to bridge the gap from simply theism to personal god religion.

There are certainly some who come in and try to argue aggressively or arrogantly for Christian belief over any other belief system/creed or over agnosticism and atheism; I have no problem matching that aggression and arrogance in dealing with those individuals. There are others who approach the topic with reasoned arguments or certain interpersonal claims, and they do very well in sharing those; with them, I meet them civilly and respectfully.

I read the Bible and the Koran daily. I have read most published works by C.S. Lewis and G.K. Chesterson. I have read Aquinas and Augustine; I've read Maritain and Alasdair MacIntyre, and am currently reading Plantinga. On the flip side, I have read Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, Hume, Russell, Nietsche, etc.

If there is a personal god, I would love to have a relationship with such a being. Unfortunately, in three decades, this relationship has never occurred, regardless of how much I have searched it out. I continue to read and search, but I have come to the logical probability that such a being either does not exist or wants no relationship with me. The latter, I cannot reconcile with the notion of an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent being, who is also purportedly all-merciful and wants everyone to know and worship him.

The philosophical inquiries aimed at establishing the absolute are, IMO, the most fascinating philosophical inquiries; yet, they, to include the theological apologia, are riddled with logical fallacies, that I have a hard time either accepting, due to the fallacy, or surmounting, due to a lack of empirical evidence to use as either proof or objection, (the circular logic regarding Holy Spirit, Christ, baptism, belief, and understanding).

Since I find these things fascinating, I also find certain views from individuals on this board fascinating (as well, I also find certain views down right unfounded and sad).
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Nah, you're just a hater.
 
#1,620
#1,620
It seems that the non believers not only want to discredit Jesus but also have an agenda to preach there disbelief to encourage the person that's mind is not made up to embrace there way.To cause one soul to be tempted it would indeed be better for him to have a millstone hung around his neck and cast into the sea.
 
#1,621
#1,621
OJ said:
It seems that the non believers not only want to discredit Jesus but also have an agenda to preach there disbelief to encourage the person that's mind is not made up to embrace there way.To cause one soul to be tempted it would indeed be better for him to have a millstone hung around his neck and cast into the sea.
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I could not have asked for a better demonstration. Thank you, OJ.

Of course, you are also fervently anti-Muslim and take issue with certain radical Muslim individuals when they do just what you have recommended.
 
#1,622
#1,622
Yes, it is much better to commit suicide in a terribly suffering manner than dare espouse a different opinion than a Christian. The religion of love!
 
#1,625
#1,625
IPorange said:
Yes, it is much better to commit suicide in a terribly suffering manner than dare espouse a different opinion than a Christian. The religion of love!
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You've heard the word and choose to not believe. Your choice, so carry on. What benefit do you gain by trying to "help" others see as you do? Are these dirty, rotten Christians destroying something precious to you?
 
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