Life on Mars?

#51
#51
distrovol said:
I always find it interesting that “science” can find an amino acid in Martian dirt and declare life exists, but a baby kicking in a mother’s womb can’t get the same designation.
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I find it interesting that folks find the need to bring the abortion debate into a thread about Mars.
 
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#54
#54
kiddiedoc said:
...Other than the fact that nothing in science has ever demonstrated that life can just "appear" from organic material. Additionally, nothing has ever explained how a necessary multitude of non-advantageous singular mutations would perpetuate over a required great deal of time to create complex organisms. Sounds like magic to me.

I've never looked at a great work of art and imagined that a bunch of oils really lucked into that formation, either. It seems a much more logical conclusion than an artist with incredible design prowess actually organized the colors in a meaningful manner.

It's a complete misrepresentation that everyone educated in science believes that nonsense. Many of us have found that the more we understand about life, biology/micro, physics, genetics, etc., the more obvious it becomes that an Intelligent Designer is necessary.
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Thanks doc..
Love it when guys like him claim the fictional "intellectual high ground" and try to talk down to me because I dont believe life magically came from a pool of amino acids...even though, there is no evidence that pool ever existed, and millions have been spent in labs to take the EXACT amino acids believed to be required for life...and zapped it with every catalyst man can think of...in perfect conditions ...and still can't create life, even for a millisecond.

But sure, that happened accidentally, billions of years ago...on a desolate planet earth. Makes sense. Spare me the flawed logic that given enough time, the probability of anything is 1 to 1...no, the probability of the impossible happening is ZERO...regardless of the time involved.

Oh, and as to you being a biologist


My aunt and her husband are both UT educated micro biologists, both have masters degrees . They are in church every Sunday, and know that God creates life...so there's that. Cheers.
 
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#55
#55
kiddiedoc said:
That's where it gets interesting. This line of thinking BEGINS with the assumption that something happened on Earth that we cannot explain with any scientific evidence. That is an obvious logical fallacy.

That being said:
1) If miraculous discoveries were made to prove that life, and further -- complex organisms, do in fact develop from non-living organic material, the size of the universe would suggest that ET life is probable.
2) Nothing about my beliefs or Christian theology rules out the possibility of ET life. Nothing suggests that it is likely, either.
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Again..thank you. Well said. If there are ETs, hope they don't find us. If they have the tech to get here, well make great pets...as the song goes. Or be exterminated if they want earth.
 
#56
#56
Charlie Kelly said:
Look man, I figured that’s what you were getting at with your original post. I didn’t mean to offend you. But I’m certainly not going down that rabbit hole with you either.

Religion is not a question science can answer. Nor has it ever tried to. I try to leave it out of my reasoning process as much as I can. Science does not preclude the existence of God though. And for the record, I’m not an atheist. In fact, most people I’ve met in the field are religious to a certain extent.

However, it’s the best explanation science has at the moment for how life began. Just leave it at that and try not to bash other people’s beliefs. They’re allowed to believe whatever they wish. Religion in a nutshell is just faith and hope anyway. There’s no need to take that away from anyone, regardless of what idea they actually find comforting.
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Good post, appreciate the level headed response. Too many "academics " seem to think science removes God from the equation. It simply doesn't. I love science, and God. They arent mutually exclusive.
 
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#57
#57
Grand Vol said:
They're probably thinking "what kind of a weirdo lifeform uses oxygen to breathe?"
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What if they are multidimensional creatures? Able to, at will, step out of spatial location and time and able to step back in, in another time and place?
 
#58
#58
I look at it this way... in the grand scheme of the universe, Earth is a particle, and life here suggests to me that life does exist elsewhere in the Cosmos.

I took courses in school in cosmology and the professor asked us to keep an open mind about about what he was going to teach... and try to put the religious aspects aside and we would get the essence of the course. In the end you can get to a certain point of belief in the Big Bang Theory but that does not complete the picture... generally need to use the Faith Leap to move between science and religion. I give credence to the primordial soup concept to the formation of organisms... did that lead to humans, I cannot say nor could I generate an argument that would convince anyone.
 
#59
#59
marcusluvsvols said:
Thanks doc..
Love it when guys like him claim the fictional "intellectual high ground" and try to talk down to me because I dont believe life magically came from a pool of amino acids...even though, there is no evidence that pool ever existed, and millions have been spent in labs to take the EXACT amino acids believed to be required for life...and zapped it with every catalyst man can think of...in perfect conditions ...and still can't create life, even for a millisecond.

But sure, that happened accidentally, billions of years ago...on a desolate planet earth. Makes sense. Spare me the flawed logic that given enough time, the probability of anything is 1 to 1...no, the probability of the impossible happening is ZERO...regardless of the time involved.

Oh, and as to you being a biologist


My aunt and her husband are both UT educated micro biologists, both have masters degrees . They are in church every Sunday, and know that God creates life...so there's that. Cheers.
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It wasn't my intention to offend you or talk down to you. I'm sorry if it came off that way. I try to be respectful and tolerant of everyone's beliefs, as long as they are peaceful.
 
#60
#60
Vol_Doc said:
True. The concept of space time is tough to wrap one's mind around, though.
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Yeah, it's difficult for people to conceptualize. Trying to visualize higher dimensions is almost counterintuitive for the human mind. Physics is a bit of a hobby of mine though. I remember discovering relativity as a teenager and it absolutely fascinated me.

On a side note, Interstellar is an amazing film about that exact sort of thing. Christopher Nolan (the director) worked with Kip Thorne (theoretical physicist and Nobel laureate) as a contributor on the movie and a lot of his own theories about wormholes, black holes, time dilation and higher dimensions were used in the film. It's one of the most accurate movies about space travel I've seen. And a good piece of cinema as well. Worth a watch it you haven't seen it.
 
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#61
#61
Charlie Kelly said:
On a side note, Interstellar is an amazing film about that exact sort of thing. Christopher Nolan (the director) worked with Kip Thorne (theoretical physicist and Nobel laureate) as a contributor on the movie and a lot of his own theories about wormholes, black holes, time dilation and higher dimensions were used in the film. It's one of the most accurate movies about space travel I've seen. And a good piece of cinema as well. Worth a watch it you haven't seen it.
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That was a very good movie. My buddy and I walked out and decided that we just shouldn't talk about it for a little while, so we could process what we just saw!

As for "accurate," we have to remember that relativity/fourth-dimension stuff is still purely theory. Fun and interesting, but without any concrete proof.
 
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#62
#62
Charlie Kelly said:
Yeah, it's difficult for people to conceptualize. Trying to visualize higher dimensions is almost counterintuitive for the human mind. Physics is a bit of a hobby of mine though. I remember discovering relativity as a teenager and it absolutely fascinated me.

On a side note, Interstellar is an amazing film about that exact sort of thing. Christopher Nolan (the director) worked with Kip Thorne (theoretical physicist and Nobel laureate) as a contributor on the movie and a lot of his own theories about wormholes, black holes, time dilation and higher dimensions were used in the film. It's one of the most accurate movies about space travel I've seen. And a good piece of cinema as well. Worth a watch it you haven't seen it.
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I've been meaning to watch that, actually. Cosmology is a side interest of mine. When string theory hit the scene, that really threw me. Something so complex that we lack the math to even understand it. Perfect instance of the balance between science and faith. I still really like the way that Contact addressed it.
 
#63
#63
kiddiedoc said:
That was a very good movie. My buddy and I walked out and decided that we just shouldn't talk about it for a little while, so we could process what we just saw!

As for "accurate," we have to remember that relativity/fourth-dimension stuff is still purely theory. Fun and interesting, but without any concrete proof.
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It was very 2001ish in the way it made you think.

Good movie overall though.
 
#64
#64
kiddiedoc said:
That was a very good movie. My buddy and I walked out and decided that we just shouldn't talk about it for a little while, so we could process what we just saw!

As for "accurate," we have to remember that relativity/fourth-dimension stuff is still purely theory. Fun and interesting, but without any concrete proof.
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?
 
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#66
#66
PKT_VOL said:
?
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Let me know once we can birth twins simultaneously on Earth and a spacecraft directly overhead traveling faster the speed of light, then check their ages years later. I argued the validity of that type of scenario with my college professor.

It's cool and mind-boggling to ponder. I certainly believe in another realm and things far beyond human comprehension. But, for one thought-group to claim scientific validity is absurd. Honestly, I am at peace saying that my spiritual journey has led me to a place of contentment with "not knowing." When I was younger, I couldn't stand the thought that I just might not be able to understand something. Now, it brings me reassurance that I am not God, and that He has always been in control and has a plan that we can't fully comprehend.
 
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#67
#67
Obviously the amino acids being in the ground when life was created is true because God created man from the dirt of the earth
 
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#69
#69
kiddiedoc said:
Let me know once we can birth twins simultaneously on Earth and a spacecraft directly overhead traveling faster the speed of light, then check their ages years later. I argued the validity of that type of scenario with my college professor.

It's cool and mind-boggling to ponder. I certainly believe in another realm and things far beyond human comprehension. But, for one thought-group to claim scientific validity is absurd. Honestly, I am at peace saying that my spiritual journey has led me to a place of contentment with "not knowing." When I was younger, I couldn't stand the thought that I just might not be able to understand something. Now, it brings me reassurance that I am not God, and that He has always been in control and has a plan that we can't fully comprehend.
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Well, to be fair, atomic clocks sent into space (ie: on satellites, etc.) have been experimentally shown to perceive time slower than ones on Earth. In other words, they "tick" slower than ones here on Earth because they are traveling, albeit minimally, nearer to the speed of light than the ones here on the ground.

As for traveling at the speed of light, that's considered pretty much impossible by our current understanding as traveling at that speed would require an infinite amount of energy to achieve it. If interstellar travel ever were made feasible by our species, it would most likely involve the bending of space-time using sustainable wormholes as "gateways" to reach whatever destination we desired. In other words, it would basically be a form of time travel.

The gap between the experimental and theoretical aspects of physics is larger than any science I can think of. There are just certain theories we aren't able to test right now. Even in the theoretical branch of physics, a lot of the math isn't fully understood or integrated together yet. For example, physicists have been working for decades to try and reconcile gravity with quantum mechanics without much success.

I don't think any of this proves or disproves any religion or the existence of God. In fact, I personally can't think of any scientific discovery that could potentially do so. Even the discovery of intelligent life on another planet wouldn't really sway me one way or the other. If God did indeed create this universe, he also created the physical laws that govern it. No offense meant, just trying to continue the discussion.
 
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#70
#70
Vol_Doc said:
I've been meaning to watch that, actually. Cosmology is a side interest of mine. When string theory hit the scene, that really threw me. Something so complex that we lack the math to even understand it. Perfect instance of the balance between science and faith. I still really like the way that Contact addressed it.
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Yeah, string theory is a trip. Really fun to think about. Though personally, I'm not fully convinced yet because of the "gaps" in math that theory seems to possess. I'm certainly open to it though. We'll see what they can figure out in the years to come. But you know scientists: skeptical if it isn't their idea and always squabbling about something (usually unimportant).

I've never seen Contact, I'll have to watch it. Coherence is a little known film that deals with multiverses overlapping unexpectedly at a dinner party because of some (poorly explained) cosmic event. I can't remember how I stumbled onto that one but it's pretty mind bending and worth a watch if you can find it.
 
#71
#71
Charlie Kelly said:
It wasn't my intention to offend you or talk down to you. I'm sorry if it came off that way. I try to be respectful and tolerant of everyone's beliefs, as long as they are peaceful.
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Refreshing to see this good attitude. Thank you for having respect for others, very few people seem to these days. At the end of the day, it takes faith to believe anything about where life came from..because none of us were there. Appreciate your attitude.
 
#72
#72
Charlie Kelly said:
Well, to be fair, atomic clocks sent into space (ie: on satellites, etc.) have been experimentally shown to perceive time slower than ones on Earth. In other words, they "tick" slower than ones here on Earth because they are traveling, albeit minimally, nearer to the speed of light than the ones here on the ground.

As for traveling at the speed of light, that's considered pretty much impossible by our current understanding as traveling at that speed would require an infinite amount of energy to achieve it. If interstellar travel ever were made feasible by our species, it would most likely involve the bending of space-time using sustainable wormholes as "gateways" to reach whatever destination we desired. In other words, it would basically be a form of time travel.

The gap between the experimental and theoretical aspects of physics is larger than any science I can think of. There are just certain theories we aren't able to test right now. Even in the theoretical branch of physics, a lot of the math isn't fully understood or integrated together yet. For example, physicists have been working for decades to try and reconcile gravity with quantum mechanics without much success.

I don't think any of this proves or disproves any religion or the existence of God. In fact, I personally can't think of any scientific discovery that could potentially do so. Even the discovery of intelligent life on another planet wouldn't really sway me one way or the other. If God did indeed create this universe, he also created the physical laws that govern it. No offense meant, just trying to continue the discussion.
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I agree with all of this above. Good post.

It is believed that wormholes can exist at the center of a black hole...right? Or even a "super" black hole, where a neutron star implodes and swallows up everything around it...if understand the science correctly though, there should be a "singularity" at the center of a black hole, a place where so much mass is concentrated at such a density that a period at the end of a sentence size ball of it would have more mass than our sun...so anything in there would be destroyed...seems like the wormhole would too...but regardless , how would we ever get a space craft in there? Seems impossible, even based on purely theoretical science...
 
#74
#74
kiddiedoc said:
Let me know once we can birth twins simultaneously on Earth and a spacecraft directly overhead traveling faster the speed of light, then check their ages years later. I argued the validity of that type of scenario with my college professor.

It's cool and mind-boggling to ponder. I certainly believe in another realm and things far beyond human comprehension. But, for one thought-group to claim scientific validity is absurd. Honestly, I am at peace saying that my spiritual journey has led me to a place of contentment with "not knowing." When I was younger, I couldn't stand the thought that I just might not be able to understand something. Now, it brings me reassurance that I am not God, and that He has always been in control and has a plan that we can't fully comprehend.
Click to expand...

You don't need abstract thought experiments, the way Einstein invented his theories (and what you are alluding to with your college professor), nor do you need a sophisticated, multi-million dollar physics laboratory to prove the theory, you merely need GPS.

The satellites that support GPS are roughly 20,000 kilometers above the Earth (1/4 the gravity at sea level) and are circling at roughly 14,000 kilometers per hour (way slower than the speed of light). Those factors, via relativity, combine to throw the atomic clocks in the satellites off by milliseconds a day. If left unchecked, GPS would become useless in only a couple minutes. To combat this phenomenon of relativity, they program an algorithm to automatically adjust the time within the chips.
 
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#75
#75
marcusluvsvols said:
I agree with all of this above. Good post.

It is believed that wormholes can exist at the center of a black hole...right? Or even a "super" black hole, where a neutron star implodes and swallows up everything around it...if understand the science correctly though, there should be a "singularity" at the center of a black hole, a place where so much mass is concentrated at such a density that a period at the end of a sentence size ball of it would have more mass than our sun...so anything in there would be destroyed...seems like the wormhole would too...but regardless , how would we ever get a space craft in there? Seems impossible, even based on purely theoretical science...
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There are different abstract constructs of wormholes in theoretical physics.

The type which is associated with black holes would not be the type a biological species would use for travel (although that is a type some physics have speculated connect/dump into a parallel universe; think Big Bang in reverse).

The other major type would a folding or bending of spacetime that would allow for a biological species to shortcut the otherwise garganguant distance between the two points (think a folded piece of paper).
 
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