Life on Mars?

[Rishvol]

You don't need abstract thought experiments, the way Einstein invented his theories (and what you are alluding to with your college professor), nor do you need a sophisticated, multi-million dollar physics laboratory to prove the theory, you merely need GPS.

The satellites that support GPS are roughly 20,000 kilometers above the Earth (1/4 the gravity at sea level) and are circling at roughly 14,000 kilometers per hour (way slower than the speed of light). Those factors, via relativity, combine to throw the atomic clocks in the satellites off by milliseconds a day. If left unchecked, GPS would become useless in only a couple minutes. To combat this phenomenon of relativity, they program an algorithm to automatically adjust the time within the chips.

Is that why GPS is useless

 

[marcusluvsvols]

There are different abstract constructs of wormholes in theoretical physics.

The type which is associated with black holes would not be the type a biological species would use for travel (although that is a type some physics have speculated connect/dump into a parallel universe; think Big Bang in reverse).

The other major type would a folding or bending of spacetime that would allow for a biological species to shortcut the otherwise garganguant distance between the two points (think a folded piece of paper).

I have watched a lecture before that talked of the folded piece of paper concept...to me that is the most far fetched of them all...how does one even propose "folding" what they call "the space time continuum " but is actually the known universe? Need a mighty big bulldozer to scrape up the universe and turn half of it over on itself, especially since those who believe in the big bang say the universe is constantly expanding in all directions unimpeded by the emptiness of space? I have trouble wrapping my head around that one...I defer to you on that one Pkt ...you are well studied in string theory and a few other muiltiverse type ideas if memory serves...

 

[PKT_VOL]

I have watched a lecture before that talked of the folded piece of paper concept...to me that is the most far fetched of them all...how does one even propose "folding" what they call "the space time continuum " but is actually the known universe? Need a mighty big bulldozer to scrape up the universe and turn half of it over on itself, especially since those who believe in the big bang say the universe is constantly expanding in all directions unimpeded by the emptiness of space? I have trouble wrapping my head around that one...I defer to you on that one Pkt ...you are well studied in string theory and a few other muiltiverse type ideas if memory serves...

The folded piece of paper abstraction is meant merely as a demonstration of the wormhole concept, basically warping spacetime to shorten the XYZ distance between to points. It was not meant to be a realistic engineering plan on how to do accomplish that feat (which is the way you are conceptualizing it).

Remember, spacetime is naturally warped by masses, particularly large masses; think of how Eddington provided the key evidence for Einstein's General Relativity by capturing the light of a distance star bending around the Sun. Even your mass, although insignificant compared to the Sun, is massive compared to a subatomic particle, and bends spacetime towards yourself ever so slightly.

Also, remember that E=MC^2. This tells us two things: 1) mass and energy are essentially different versions of the same thing (think ice and water being different version of H2O) and 2) one needs a massive amount of energy to equal the equivalent of mass.

So, while the Sun can easily bend light from a distant star, it would require a massive amount of energy to bend that same light in the same manner. Now, from a human perspective, would not be able to pass through a wormhole created via mass (it would be no different than trying to go through a brick wall). Thus, we would need a wormhole made via energy. Thus, we would need to concentrate a massive amount of energy into a very, very, small area (a quantum-sized area). It would require more energy than we could ever conceivably produce in the next 100 years given the current pace of technology (and remember E=MC^2, which means we would need a massive amount of mass to fuel that energy).

On top of the outlined above, even if we were able to produce enough energy to create a quantum wormhole, control and manipulate that wormhole to increase the size enough for us to pass through, we would still not be able to (in theory) control where it comes out at (maybe we will, one day, have quantum mechanics/fluctuations/entanglement figured out in order to change this).

 

[marcusluvsvols]

The folded piece of paper abstraction is meant merely as a demonstration of the wormhole concept, basically warping spacetime to shorten the XYZ distance between to points. It was not meant to be a realistic engineering plan on how to do accomplish that feat (which is the way you are conceptualizing it).

Remember, spacetime is naturally warped by masses, particularly large masses; think of how Eddington provided the key evidence for Einstein's General Relativity by capturing the light of a distance star bending around the Sun. Even your mass, although insignificant compared to the Sun, is massive compared to a subatomic particle, and bends spacetime towards yourself ever so slightly.

Also, remember that E=MC^2. This tells us two things: 1) mass and energy are essentially different versions of the same thing (think ice and water being different version of H2O) and 2) one needs a massive amount of energy to equal the equivalent of mass.

So, while the Sun can easily bend light from a distant star, it would require a massive amount of energy to bend that same light in the same manner. Now, from a human perspective, would not be able to pass through a wormhole created via mass (it would be no different than trying to go through a brick wall). Thus, we would need a wormhole made via energy. Thus, we would need to concentrate a massive amount of energy into a very, very, small area (a quantum-sized area). It would require more energy than we could ever conceivably produce in the next 100 years given the current pace of technology (and remember E=MC^2, which means we would need a massive amount of mass to fuel that energy).

On top of the outlined above, even if we were able to produce enough energy to create a quantum wormhole, control and manipulate that wormhole to increase the size enough for us to pass through, we would still not be able to (in theory) control where it comes out at (maybe we will, one day, have quantum mechanics/fluctuations/entanglement figured out in order to change this).

Thanks brother. Enjoyed your post. Lots of info

 

[kiddiedoc]

A couple of notes on the most famous equation in history:

1) Energy and Mass are NOT the same. It is really an equation of proportionality (hence, different units for E and m).

2) E only = mc2 when a mass is at total rest (which is virtually impossible in the real world/universe). The complete (and more useful) equation includes energy from momentum.

 

[Charlie Kelly]

The folded piece of paper abstraction is meant merely as a demonstration of the wormhole concept, basically warping spacetime to shorten the XYZ distance between to points. It was not meant to be a realistic engineering plan on how to do accomplish that feat (which is the way you are conceptualizing it).

Remember, spacetime is naturally warped by masses, particularly large masses; think of how Eddington provided the key evidence for Einstein's General Relativity by capturing the light of a distance star bending around the Sun. Even your mass, although insignificant compared to the Sun, is massive compared to a subatomic particle, and bends spacetime towards yourself ever so slightly.

Also, remember that E=MC^2. This tells us two things: 1) mass and energy are essentially different versions of the same thing (think ice and water being different version of H2O) and 2) one needs a massive amount of energy to equal the equivalent of mass.

So, while the Sun can easily bend light from a distant star, it would require a massive amount of energy to bend that same light in the same manner. Now, from a human perspective, would not be able to pass through a wormhole created via mass (it would be no different than trying to go through a brick wall). Thus, we would need a wormhole made via energy. Thus, we would need to concentrate a massive amount of energy into a very, very, small area (a quantum-sized area). It would require more energy than we could ever conceivably produce in the next 100 years given the current pace of technology (and remember E=MC^2, which means we would need a massive amount of mass to fuel that energy).

On top of the outlined above, even if we were able to produce enough energy to create a quantum wormhole, control and manipulate that wormhole to increase the size enough for us to pass through, we would still not be able to (in theory) control where it comes out at (maybe we will, one day, have quantum mechanics/fluctuations/entanglement figured out in order to change this).

Pretty much spot on. We are a very long way from any type of interstellar travel with our current knowledge of physics, engineering, quantum mechanics, etc. It's one of the reasons discovering any sort of life anywhere else in the universe is so difficult for us. And probably for other intelligent species as well, assuming they exist.

People have suggested certain ideas for harnessing great amounts of energy that would be needed for interstellar travel like Dyson Spheres/Shells, etc. but we are currently lifetimes away from being able to attempt such a thing.

 

[marcusluvsvols]

Pretty much spot on. We are a very long way from any type of interstellar travel with our current knowledge of physics, engineering, quantum mechanics, etc. It's one of the reasons discovering any sort of life anywhere else in the universe is so difficult for us. And probably for other intelligent species as well, assuming they exist.

People have suggested certain ideas for harnessing great amounts of energy that would be needed for interstellar travel like Dyson Spheres/Shells, etc. but we are currently lifetimes away from being able to attempt such a thing.

Yes, and while I admit to being excited about the testing of the emdrive? Or any other drive that somehow defies physics...I think the only way we achieve interstellar travel will have something to do with one of the 2 forces we struggle to explain much less harness...gravity or magnetism. Neither behaves exactly asnit should given our known laws of physics (to my limited understanding) which leads me to believe that if we can fully understand the how and why of each that we could eventually use them to travel great distances. I know that it requires electricity to give a metal object a charge, but after that, magnets can move eachother without using any fuel or consuming any more energy from their surroundings...I find that intriguing, I know that we already use the gravity of planets and moons to "slingshot" our deep space craft around our solar system...so there may be potential there as well, it's just hard to even imagine. I have told my kids, Henry Ford looked at people all around him riding horses and said "I am going to make carriages powered by gas engines, and every man can drive one instead of riding horses." His thinking was so far outside the box as to be nearly insane...but he was absolutely right, and brilliant, and changed the course of humanity. We need another Ford. Someone who looks at rockets and the space shuttle and says "these are crap. I am going to make a new spacecraft powered by X, and everyone will be able to travel the galaxy." Are there any Fords left? Are there too many distractions in modern life for someone to think that abstractly? Necessity is the mother of invention, we are so spoiled now as humans, does anyone ever actually NEED anything???

I am not sure there are anymore Ford's. Nor am I sure that any technology like cold fusion, etc that would upset our oil dependent economy would ever be allowed to exist and make it to market. People are quickly killed when billions of dollars are on the line. This world is very corrupt.