Limitations of a "West Coast" Offense

[1972 Grad]

So, we have a chance to get to a Nat'l Champ game, but we can't win it? That's better than what we've been doing.

 

[thebjd]

Football games can be won with about any scheme if the players execute the plays. Talented players make the difference in the end.

 

[volstopfan14]

No question that oregons offense has had a lot of success. I think you could compare it to the Loyola marrimount basketball experiment. Why don't anyone run that anymore in basketball? Oregon has a gimmick offense. They try to spread you out with several options, using motions, etc, hoping to get defenses to line up wrong by running plays quickly and often. They try to gas out the defenses and not allow substitutions. I personally am glad that all teams don't run that style, it would get old to me quick. Defenses are starting to catch up to the style I think. Most are not there yet, but Stanford has given everyone the blue print. Keep in mind though, Oregon could run a lot of styles of offense that would have been successful the last few years. They have seen a lot of high calibre players the last few years.

Oregon's offense isn't a gimmick. The plays they run are all fundamentally sound plays that you see many "pro style" NFL teams run on Sundays. They just use motion, tempo, and spread formations to put more stress on a defense. Against an undisciplined defense, that offense is unstoppable. Against a disciplined defense, it just comes down to talent and execution, like always.

Chip Kelly’s offense works not because it’s a gimmick, but because rather than choose sides between old and new, Kelly’s teams straddle history. Oregon is successful because it does well what good teams have always done well, albeit with a slightly more modern wardrobe.

“We spread the defense so they will declare their defensive look for the offensive linemen,” Kelly explained at that same clinic. “The more offensive personnel we put in the box, the more defenders the defense will put in there, and it becomes a cluttered mess.” Twenty years ago, Kelly’s high school coach ran the unbalanced, two–tight end power-I, so he could execute old-school, fundamental football and run the ball down his opponent’s throat. Today, Kelly spreads the defense and operates out of an up-tempo no-huddle so he can do the exact same thing.

Time will undoubtedly tell whether Kelly’s offense can work in the NFL, but my vote is that it will. It would require Kelly finding the right players, but a Chip Kelly–coached NFL team would win for the same reasons that the Chip Kelly–coached college team wins. Behind the speed, the spread, the Daft Punk helmets, and the flashy uniforms, Oregon ultimately wins with old-fashioned, fundamental, run-it-up-the-gut football. I think everyone, even fans of the spread offense, can appreciate that.

The New Old School «

 

[NashVOL93]

I can already tell you're going to get reamed out for this, so instead of participating in that I'll just point you in the direction of VolNation user majic73, who has in the past explained in very intuitive terms the details of the Jones/Bajakian hybrid offense, which is an amalgamation of systems they've picked up at various other coaching stops and is really quite innovative.

Here's a few his previous posts on the subject. Really good stuff here:

Butch's system is different than many of the other 'spread' offenses. The passing game is a west coast style with leveled progressions. The running game is a power running game from the gun. Instead of using a fullback , they use an H back . There are more receivers outside of the formation ...but they carry a defender out of the box . It is a zone blocking scheme , with traps , and pulls . It is very much a power running game just with less people in the box. Some may even call it a power running spread .

This offense is not predicated on the zone read play ...such as Oregon's offensive philosophy where each play is played off of the root play of the zone read . The zone read is only an aspect of this offense. A running QB is not necessary for this offense . When Worley handed off to the back ( and never kept the ball himself ) they were running a basic half back dive play . This is a staple play in virtually any power running game . It is not required for the QB to ever keep the ball or even carry out the fake to run this play.

I will say that a run oriented QB will be nice ...but it is not a zone read offense that you will see ..you will see a west coast passing game grounded in the 4 verticals philosophy and a tailback oriented power running game . The offense can be operated by any kind of QB as long as they can execute the passing concepts.

I like all that you said. To be more specific :

- A west coast passing attack with layered reads
- a power running game
- a TE dependent offense ( see NE Patriots ) that features more hybrid H-back sorts that double as fullbacks and that can split out

So how can it be a power out of the spread ? There are more blockers at the point of attack than defenders.
Unlike the Oregon 'spread' which is predicated off the zone read and option play ...our offense will be predicated off the HB Dive with the QB run simply being a counter to keep the mystical E gap accounted for. Done look for the QB keepers.

All 'spreads' are different. The Urban Myer offense is the Wishbone all spread out with the QB playing the duel role of QB and one of the full backs. The Oregon O is predicated off the zone read . Auburn runs the Wing T ..all spread out. Butchs offense can best be described as the I form power running game ..all spread out

That is the play action part of it....which is more important in Butch's system than the QB keep and run.

My only point is that this offense is being confused with teams like Oregon , Auburn , and Urbies Gators. They are all in fact different and this offense ( when ran with a proficient QB ) is different than all of them .

Butches O - Power running spread , west coast passing game with a tone of play action It is not predicated off of the zone read ..that is only one of many counters plays in the power running game

Auburn : spread out Wing T , deception is the name of the game.

Oregon - a true zone read O . Every play is rooted in the zone read and every play is predicated off the base zone read

Tebow Gators - A spread out Wishbone with the QB being one of the running backs. Instead of bunched power backs ...you have spread out speed and hybrid receivers-RBs.

 

[Volosaurus rex]

The following sources provide a good comparative analysis of the offensive schemes and, thus, personnel packages and specific skill-sets favored by Brian Kelly and Butch Jones during their respective tenures at Cincinnati:

The Difference Between Butch Jones and Brian Kelly: Part 1 - Down The Drive

The Difference Between Butch Jones and Brian Kelly: Part 2 - Down The Drive

The Difference Between Butch Jones and Brian Kelly: Part 3 - Down The Drive

Unfortunately, the links to film clips which illustrate these principles appear to no longer be active.

 

[turdherder11]

We will use our TEs a lot more this year. That's gonna be the only big change from last year. The execution of the offense should be better, we finally have a coach who can keep his staff intact. Plus, some players getting another year of the same offense under their belt will only help. Can't wait

 

[GLDunlap]

Sure, speed kills. I think we, as Vol fans, have bought into that by now, because that is the type of team Butch Jones is building. But the SEC has nevertheless been more successful than other conferences, including and especially the PAC-10 (or whatever it's called now), because it attacks and dominates at the line of scrimmage (and, yes, to do that successfully requires a healthy dose of speed in its own right).

Now that we have adopted a "West Coast" style, I just hope that Coach Butch Jones doesn't lose sight of what made and continues to make the SEC successful.

Ultimately, I think we can do both: Run a spread offense and still hunker down and smash some mouths when we need to.

I am elated to have heard CBJ acknowledge on several occasions that the SEC is a "line of scrimmage" league, and I hope that signifies that, as much as he loves speed and "spreading it out", he understands that this style of football, in and of itself, does have its limitations on occasion.

For example, Stanford consistently owns Oregon. Why? Because they have made it a policy to take it to Oregon, defensively, by being very physical at the line of scrimmage and knocking Oregon off its game. Similarly, as flashy as Oregon is, it has not yet broken through to a national championship because it has inevitably run into SEC teams that have done the same thing.

It's all well and good to spread 'em out and dazzle them with your speed, but there come times when the other guy either has your number and/or things are just not clicking on your end. When those times come, you just have to be able to line up and smash 'em into submission (like we did against Arkansas in '98, for example). I think, I hope, that is exactly why CBJ has been recruiting guys like Hurd, Weatherd, Bates, TK, etc. The future sure does seem bright!

Stanford has beaten Oregon the last two years by less then a touchdown. Previous to that Oregon had won 9 out of the last 10 games with Stanford. That's like saying Vanderbilt consistently own's Tennessee.

 

[A-Millz]

I wish we wouldn't run the zone read, without a dual threat QB it slows are running backs down and lets the defence have more time to react

 

[knoxvols11]

You do know Kiffin runs a West coast offense right? We were pretty good at running the ball that yr. All west coast really means is u run a lot of crossing routes and u run stretch and zone

That was because we had Hardesty that year!

 

[livefaith]

That was because we had Hardesty that year!

Definitely helped having him healthy. But Bryce Brown got almost 500yd as a true FR too. Decent running game that year even though I hate giving credit to anything that might throw + light on that staff.

 

[livefaith]

The following sources provide a good comparative analysis of the offensive schemes and, thus, personnel packages and specific skill-sets favored by Brian Kelly and Butch Jones during their respective tenures at Cincinnati:

The Difference Between Butch Jones and Brian Kelly: Part 2 - Down The Drive...

Uh, oh. OP has been taking heat for using the "West Coast" term. But check this out in the 2nd link ...

"The basic conception of the offense is that it is the old spread and shred from the Rich Rod heyday on the ground married to the more staid and conservative west coast passing attack that comes from the Michigan influence that has pervaded Jones time as an assistant."

Hmmm?

 

[Other_Guy]

Sure, speed kills. I think we, as Vol fans, have bought into that by now, because that is the type of team Butch Jones is building. But the SEC has nevertheless been more successful than other conferences, including and especially the PAC-10 (or whatever it's called now), because it attacks and dominates at the line of scrimmage (and, yes, to do that successfully requires a healthy dose of speed in its own right).

Now that we have adopted a "West Coast" style, I just hope that Coach Butch Jones doesn't lose sight of what made and continues to make the SEC successful.

Ultimately, I think we can do both: Run a spread offense and still hunker down and smash some mouths when we need to.

I am elated to have heard CBJ acknowledge on several occasions that the SEC is a "line of scrimmage" league, and I hope that signifies that, as much as he loves speed and "spreading it out", he understands that this style of football, in and of itself, does have its limitations on occasion.

For example, Stanford consistently owns Oregon. Why? Because they have made it a policy to take it to Oregon, defensively, by being very physical at the line of scrimmage and knocking Oregon off its game. Similarly, as flashy as Oregon is, it has not yet broken through to a national championship because it has inevitably run into SEC teams that have done the same thing.

It's all well and good to spread 'em out and dazzle them with your speed, but there come times when the other guy either has your number and/or things are just not clicking on your end. When those times come, you just have to be able to line up and smash 'em into submission (like we did against Arkansas in '98, for example). I think, I hope, that is exactly why CBJ has been recruiting guys like Hurd, Weatherd, Bates, TK, etc. The future sure does seem bright!

I agree to keep it smashmouth but wouldn't Meyer have something to say about that?

Also we bought into it long ago when speed killed us lol

 

[Volz4lif3]

Does it involve eating a lot of salads and hummus?

Lots of granola..

 

[Orange_Crush]

I read those articles about CBJ's offense when he was first hired. Of note, they contain the key to our QB problems last year, and a reason CBJ's offenses always click the second year.

Jones on the other hand uses an offense that is much more structured, and it has to be like that. For a west coast offense, which is the basic theory of offense that Jones puts to forth, everything in terms of execution comes down to timing. The drop of the QB and the movements of the receivers are synchronized so that the ball and the man arrive at the same spot on the field at the same time. That level of precision lends itself to a highly structured routes and route combination's. Let's check out some examples.

If your QB is to throw a pass on time to a spot instead of a receiver, when the receiver is in the wrong spot or out of time, you may think you see a lot of under/overthrows.

You don't. You see a disconnect when connection is needed. I project a much more proficient passing game this year.

 

[VFL1953]

IMO the reason Stanford and top SEC teams have success vs Oregon and other up tempo teams is not about the offense. It's about playing physical fundamental defense. I hope that never goes of of style.

 

[1972 Grad]

Stanford has beaten Oregon the last two years by less then a touchdown. Previous to that Oregon had won 9 out of the last 10 games with Stanford. That's like saying Vanderbilt consistently own's Tennessee.

I see what you did there with the possessive form of own. Fitting.

 

[Rooster1]

IMO the reason Stanford and top SEC teams have success vs Oregon and other up tempo teams is not about the offense. It's about playing physical fundamental defense. I hope that never goes of of style.

Correct. SEC is and always be about LOS, even the Auburn teams that have done well lately mad sure their lines were physical and SEC in nature, their offense under Gus is something based upon tempo and mismatches caused by motion, but they have always had the ability to play big boy ball as well for tough yards. It is a unique combo of talent and technique that many schools are moving toward, usually called HUNH offense, but at Auburn they do it with the ability to play hard ball in the trenches when needed. Deadly combo.

 

[DiderotsGhost]

There are people with more expertise than me on this at VN, but ...

(A) We don't run a West Coast offense,
(B) With all due respect to the OP, I believe he is mis-defining West Coast offense [though, the definition has become a bit confused over time]
(C) Don't think that having a West Coast offense would change our emphasis on defense.

On a very a basic level, the West Coast offense is meant to protect against a big pass rush. WC Offense focuses on a short passing game to make the pass rush less effective, make play-calling less predictable, and open up the field for bigger plays later on.

Our offense (I've normally seen it called the "power spread" here) has a similar goal to help neutralize a strong pass rush, but with a bigger emphasis on misdirection type running plays (e.g. zone read) than the WC offense.

Unfortunately, our offense wasn't very successful in achieving its goals much of last season. This was partly because a lack of experience and talent at several positions. It was also because we lacked the personnel and knowledge to make it work. Hence, our "zone read" became fairly predictable, and defenses knew exactly where to focus their efforts.

I think Butch knew all of this going in last season, but he was looking at the long-term. By implementing his system right away, it would make it easier to run in Year 2 and beyond. It would also allow recruits to see exactly the direction we were going with the offense, so Butch could better recruit the type of players we need in the future.

And yes, for those more knowledgeable than me, feel free to correct any misconceptions I have. I try to understand what I can about offensive and defensive strategies, but I also have a day job

 

[Volosaurus rex]

Butch has specifically said that he likes the term "power spread" as a descriptor for his offense. This is partially due to the fact that he does not like the mental image of finesse that is commonly associated with spread offenses.

 

[memtownvol]

I read those articles about CBJ's offense when he was first hired. Of note, they contain the key to our QB problems last year, and a reason CBJ's offenses always click the second year.



If your QB is to throw a pass on time to a spot instead of a receiver, when the receiver is in the wrong spot or out of time, you may think you see a lot of under/overthrows.

You don't. You see a disconnect when connection is needed. I project a much more proficient passing game this year.

This is something that we heard a lot of from the coaching staff last season. They consistently said that the receivers were not running their routs properly due to inexperience or lack of physical play on their part. Lets hope that both aspects have been improved upon this year and we see more production in the passing game.

 

[UTodd01]

WCO is option routes for the WR's that require timing.

Everything else is pretty standard.

Nothing to see here.

 

[Vols520]

PAC 12 is better than the SEC this year.

 

[VolForLife83]

I said they haven't broken through and WON a national championship, not that they haven't played for one. Auburn dominated at the line of scrimmage and kept them from it. That's my point.

I think what killed Oregon in that game was they were worried sick about Cam Newton. Defenders couldn't focus on anything, but to contain Cam.

 

[butchna]

PAC 12 is better than the SEC this year.

The mind always goes first. :ermm:

 

[coach12]

CBJ, in his initial presser, dubbed this offense a power running spread. Having learned/observed more of over the last year, I would say that's a fair way to describe it. Having said that, I do see elements of the "west coast" offense as suggested by the OP.
In my humble opinion, it can best be described as a hybrid offense. It uses spread formations/alignment to create space for athletes. They use pre snap motion in creative ways to allow for a power running game w the read option as an additional advantage. Much of the route tree does appear to be borrowed from the west coast offense. Lots of short crossing routes and intermediate throws. Which are higher percentage passes.
I love this offense bc it borrows the best of several different offenses. I know some will say they don't bc it hasn't produced wins yet. To that I say let CBJ get more guys in and teach it to them. The west coast style route tree is especially powerful once kids have learned it. The higher percentage passes allow the offense to more consistently convert and stay on field longer, which helps control both the clock and field position. Couple that with an effective running game and you have a winning offensive scheme.