Looks like Pruitt & UT will have to vacate wins

#51
#51
unfrozencvmanvol said:
Yeah, they have been creeping up on us for decades. We had a 57 game lead on them at the end of the 1971 season and since the sport fully integrated the next year and demographics gave them a big recruiting edge, they have made up 58 games on us. Would have probably have caught us sooner if not for the 90's when we beat them back some.
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THE reason they caught us is because we fired Phillip Fulmer. Period.

You say they were 57 games behind us after 1971. They only made up 4 games between then and the end of Fulmer's tenure in 2008: they were still 53 games back at that point. Four game delta over 37 years. That wasn't a slow creep, it was glacial, practically non-existent.

Then we gave up that entire 53-win lead between '09 and last season, just 14 years. Our Dark Ages (plus Josh Heupel's first two seasons at the very end).

If we had avoided the Dark Ages (by whatever means, I would've supported giving Fulmer a one-year sabbatical, but not specifying that way, it could've been a far better series of hires than Kiffin-Dooley-Jones-Pruitt, whatever), we'd still be far ahead of UGa. Even with their Kirby Smart resurgence. Here's the math to prove it:

Georgia won 145 games between 2009 and 2022. Tennessee won only 91 (-54 off UGa). That was, for the Vols, a .523 win rate.

If we had continued to win at Fulmer's rate, .745, we would have gathered 130 Ws in that time. Only giving up 15 of our 53-win lead.

We would still be ahead of UGa by 38 wins, and ahead of USCw by 39.

And for the Fulmer haters who believe the man could never amount to anything except with David Cutcliffe holding his hand, even the Cutcliffe-less Fulmer went .667 (the years '99 to '05, and '08). At a .667 clip, we would've won 116 games in the same period UGa was winning 145. That's a 29-game deficit, sure, but with a lead at the time of 53 games, we'd still been comfortably ahead of the Dawgs by 24 wins.

In short: don't fire Fulmer, or make better hiring decisions if you do fire him, and the Vols would still be well ahead of USCw and UGa, and would have Josh Heupel in position to leapfrog Nebraska.

Go Vols!
 
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#52
#52
VFL-82-JP said:
THE reason they caught us is because we fired Phillip Fulmer. Period.

You say they were 57 games behind us after 1971. They only made up 4 games between then and the end of Fulmer's tenure in 2008: they were still 53 games back at that point. Four game delta over 37 years. That wasn't a slow creep, it was glacial, practically non-existent.

Then we gave up that entire 53-win lead between '09 and last season, just 14 years. Our Dark Ages (plus Josh Heupel's first two seasons at the very end).

If we had avoided the Dark Ages (by whatever means, I would've supported giving Fulmer a one-year sabbatical, but not specifying that way, it could've been a far better series of hires than Kiffin-Dooley-Jones-Pruitt, whatever), we'd still be far ahead of UGa. Even with their Kirby Smart resurgence. Here's the math to prove it:

Georgia won 145 games between 2009 and 2022. Tennessee won only 91 (-54 off UGa). That was, for the Vols, a .523 win rate.

If we had continued to win at Fulmer's rate, .745, we would have gathered 130 Ws in that time. Only giving up 15 of our 53-win lead.

We would still be ahead of UGa by 38 wins, and ahead of USCw by 39.

And for the Fulmer haters who believe the man could never amount to anything except with David Cutcliffe holding his hand, even the Cutcliffe-less Fulmer went .667 (the years '99 to '05, and '08). At a .667 clip, we would've won 116 games in the same period UGa was winning 145. That's a 29-game deficit, sure, but with a lead at the time of 53 games, we'd still been comfortably ahead of the Dawgs by 24 wins.

In short: don't fire Fulmer, or make better hiring decisions if you do fire him, and the Vols would still be well ahead of USCw and UGa, and would have Josh Heupel in position to leapfrog Nebraska.

Go Vols!
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It was a 57 game lead after 1971; 35 after 1988 (when Vince Dooley retired), 70 after 2001, back down to 53 after 2008, down to 33 when Richt was fired in 2015 and now gone completely as of January 10, 2023. As I said, they have been gaining on us steadily since the sport integrated other than 1989-2000 when Majors & Fulmer took 35 games back from Goff and Donnan, likewise when we had some bad coaches it accelerated, but it's a pattern outside of the 1990's when we were at a height and they had their worst stretch in 50 years. In all, since integration, we are plus 35 against them the 12 years from 1989 to 2000. We are minus 93 against them the other 40 years since integration.
 
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#55
#55
All time winning percentage is more important anyway……..
 
#57
#57
peaygolf said:
All time winning percentage is more important anyway……..
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You think so? Because Florida State is right behind us in win pct and they have about 300 less all time wins than we do. I guess it depends on who we are talking to.
 
#58
#58
unfrozencvmanvol said:
You think so? Because Florida State is right behind us in win pct and they have about 300 less all time wins than we do. I guess it depends on who we are talking to.
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I had zero idea……UT is what,, 10th over all and 11th in percentage?

I was saying that some schools haven’t played as many seasons, or had a program as long as others.

Point considered…….who has had a better history…….Vandy or Boise? FSU or Mississippi St?
 
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#60
#60
peaygolf said:
I had zero idea……UT is what,, 10th over all and 11th in percentage?

I was saying that some schools haven’t played as many seasons, or had a program as long as others.

Point considered…….who has had a better history…….Vandy or Boise? FSU or Mississippi St?
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Yep, we are 11th in percentage and tied for 10th on overall wins (with Southern Cal).

I agree sometimes its a conundrum between some schools, but I will just never consider any Johnny Come Lately like Boise State as on par with an SEC school, even Vanderbilt. I guess wins really speaks to blue blood status to me more than winning percentage because to be up there you've got to go pretty much all the way back.
 
#65
#65
onevol74 said:
Thought we were supposed to hear from the NCAA in June?
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That’s what I thought too. I think people said 2-3 months maybe? It also took two years for them to reach this point and we kept hearing it would be a few months and we would know something…
 
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#66
#66
VFL-82-JP said:
THE reason they caught us is because we fired Phillip Fulmer. Period.

You say they were 57 games behind us after 1971. They only made up 4 games between then and the end of Fulmer's tenure in 2008: they were still 53 games back at that point. Four game delta over 37 years. That wasn't a slow creep, it was glacial, practically non-existent.

Then we gave up that entire 53-win lead between '09 and last season, just 14 years. Our Dark Ages (plus Josh Heupel's first two seasons at the very end).

If we had avoided the Dark Ages (by whatever means, I would've supported giving Fulmer a one-year sabbatical, but not specifying that way, it could've been a far better series of hires than Kiffin-Dooley-Jones-Pruitt, whatever), we'd still be far ahead of UGa. Even with their Kirby Smart resurgence. Here's the math to prove it:

Georgia won 145 games between 2009 and 2022. Tennessee won only 91 (-54 off UGa). That was, for the Vols, a .523 win rate.

If we had continued to win at Fulmer's rate, .745, we would have gathered 130 Ws in that time. Only giving up 15 of our 53-win lead.

We would still be ahead of UGa by 38 wins, and ahead of USCw by 39.

And for the Fulmer haters who believe the man could never amount to anything except with David Cutcliffe holding his hand, even the Cutcliffe-less Fulmer went .667 (the years '99 to '05, and '08). At a .667 clip, we would've won 116 games in the same period UGa was winning 145. That's a 29-game deficit, sure, but with a lead at the time of 53 games, we'd still been comfortably ahead of the Dawgs by 24 wins.

In short: don't fire Fulmer, or make better hiring decisions if you do fire him, and the Vols would still be well ahead of USCw and UGa, and would have Josh Heupel in position to leapfrog Nebraska.

Go Vols!
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With the 2024 landscape coming into effect, it may be a different story, but I am of the opinion that Tennessee Football in the 1992-2023 SEC should NEVER go worse than 4-4 in the SEC, 8-4 overall depending on non conference opponent. Yes, integration puts us behind the 8 ball in regards to Alabama, Georgia and Florida. But guess what? We still border 2 of those 3 states and can pull talent from all of them. We still have better resources and booster/fan support than most of the other teams on the schedule. The fact that 8-4 was THE BEST record we had from 2008-2020 is a direct result of piss poor decision making at the top of the organization. PERIOD. If we had gone 8-4 every year from 2008-2020, Georgia is still far from catching us and there were many years in that stretch where we were a couple plays away from beating UGA straight up.
 
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#67
#67
Fulmer is the key to this and all other non-successful entities of the past 15 years! Had we not fired him we would have never been wandering in the desert, so to speak!

Yes, had we only given him a year sabbatical, we would be trying Bama and contending with Georga for SEC and National Championships!
 
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#68
#68
Vacating beating the $hit outta Kentuckys best team ever will sting…..lol
 
#70
#70
I have always considered vacating wins and championships to be a very hollow punishment.

Like Matt Leinert QB for USC said when the NCAA vacated their 2004 BCS Championship because Reggie Bush had been provided impermissible benefits, "Anyone who actually cares, will remember who really won the games."

I will take that "punishment" over a bowl ban and scholarship reductions all day long.
 
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#71
#71
BowlBrother85 said:
I have always considered vacating wins and championships to be a very hollow punishment.

Like Matt Leinert QB for USC said when the NCAA vacated their 2004 BCS Championship because Reggie Bush had been provided impermissible benefits, "Anyone who actually cares, will remember who really won the games."

I will take that "punishment" over a bowl ban and scholarship reductions all day long.
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I tend in the opposite direction.

A monetary fine and reduction in a modest number of scholarships for a year or even two, those are just transitory pain. Five years later, we wouldn't even remember they happened.

But vacated wins, subtracting from the history books, that goes on forever. Ten years ... fifty years ... a century later, still hurting the program.

Our great-great-grandchildren who are Vols fans will still be paying that price, long after we're all dead.

Give me the short-term punishments, every time.
 
#72
#72
I think the NCAA taking their sweet time on this hurts the program as well. Opponents can continue to use it against us in recruiting. They had the hearing in April and have had ample time to pass down the decision. It’s really ridiculous.
 
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#73
#73
BowlBrother85 said:
I have always considered vacating wins and championships to be a very hollow punishment.

Like Matt Leinert QB for USC said when the NCAA vacated their 2004 BCS Championship because Reggie Bush had been provided impermissible benefits, "Anyone who actually cares, will remember who really won the games."

I will take that "punishment" over a bowl ban and scholarship reductions all day long.
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Agree. I’ve never understood it. The team still won those games regardless and fans can still make note of it and brag about it. I don’t see how it’s a punishment really at all.
 
#74
#74
cherokeeeVOL said:
Agree. I’ve never understood it. The team still won those games regardless and fans can still make note of it and brag about it. I don’t see how it’s a punishment really at all.
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Without looking, do you remember what games we won in 1955?

How about 1972?

Even 1994?

Sure, you remember the outcome of the Arkansas, Florida, and Syracuse games in '98, because that season sticks out in the memories of all Vol fans who were alive at the time. Kinda makes it easier that we were 13-0 that season, too, heh.

But most seasons, even good, solid seasons, seasons we ended the year in the Top 25, you can't recall the outcomes of most games.

When it comes to history, everyone relies on the history books. And the history books DO vacate the wins. They are lost forever.

I know, that doesn't bother you much, Cherokee. Or BowlBrother, either. I'm not trying to change your mind. We each get to go our own way on this question.

But it does make a difference to the program. Over the long term, a much bigger difference than some lost $$ or scholarships.
 
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