Making a Murderer (w/ Spoilers)

[bamawriter]

I don't know if the bullet was found post confession but if so it even lends more credence to his confession.

If they had never searched the garage before, then you'd be correct. If they'd had no reason to believe that the garage was the scene of the crime, and Dassey pointed them there, then sure. But finding it only after the confession, and despite the fact that they'd searched the building numerous times? No. Sorry. That lends every bit as much credence to a claim of planting evidence as it does to corroboration of Dassey's confession.

Likewise, if they'd found the bullet pre-confession, but didn't make the information public, it would have corroborated Dassey's confession. But, again, that's not what happened.

But I've already acknowledged the bullet as (somewhat) corroborative evidence. Can you give me anything else from his confession that was corroborated by the physical evidence?

 

[Sandvol]

This is yet another instance where the theory of the crime doesn't match the confession.


Half a week went by between the murder and the discovery. If they were planning to move the bones throughout the property, why did they do such a terrible job? And if they did move the bones somewhere besides the pit, the barrel, and the quarry, why were no bones found anywhere else?

I can speculate here. You're asking me how criminals get caught? Maybe Avery thought if he spread them out they wouldn't be so noticeable. Maybe when she went missing some of his family members on the property suspected him and there were news crews around so he felt he had to be careful. Maybe the dogs moved the bones to the quarry where they were intermingled with animal bones. I don't know.

Your theory is full of contradictions:

They were dumb enough to leave the car where it could be found, and to have failed to clean the car, and to have left the remains on the property, and to have left the bullet and the key where they could be found...

AND YET

They were brilliant enough to clean, to professional levels (if not beyond), a dump of a trailer and a filthy, cluttered garage to the point that not a single drop of blood or any other DNA could be found.


I'm sorry, but they cannot be both that dumb and that brilliant.

Maybe there wasn't that much blood. Dassey said in his confession there were only a couple areas of blood in the garage. Blood is an obvious clean-up. The car was problematic. The car is big and difficult to get rid of. He couldn't be seen driving or crushing her car. Dassey said he planned to crush it when he got a chance. So instead he tried to hide it with the intention of crushing it later. It is obvious he planned this murder. I'm sure he thought a lot about how he would get rid of the evidence. But, you're right. He's not a real smart fellow and didn't think it through thoroughly enough. How do I get rid of the car? How do I get rid of the body? How do I explain all the phone calls to her? How do I explain the bonfire? How do I explain her belongings? How do I keep Brendan quiet? etc. etc.

 

[Sandvol]

If they had never searched the garage before, then you'd be correct. If they'd had no reason to believe that the garage was the scene of the crime, and Dassey pointed them there, then sure. But finding it only after the confession, and despite the fact that they'd searched the building numerous times? No. Sorry. That lends every bit as much credence to a claim of planting evidence as it does to corroboration of Dassey's confession.

Likewise, if they'd found the bullet pre-confession, but didn't make the information public, it would have corroborated Dassey's confession. But, again, that's not what happened.

But I've already acknowledged the bullet as (somewhat) corroborative evidence. Can you give me anything else from his confession that was corroborated by the physical evidence?

You're talking about a small piece of lead. Do you know how small a 22 lead bullet is and then a fragment of that? If you're not familiar with a 22 bullet go buy one. We're talking half of that-20 grains of lead maybe. Very small.

 

[Sandvol]

Yes, how did he know Teresa was in the back of the RAV 4?

 

[bamawriter]

I can speculate here. You're asking me how criminals get caught? Maybe Avery thought if he spread them out they wouldn't be so noticeable. Maybe when she went missing some of his family members on the property suspected him and there were news crews around so he felt he had to be careful. Maybe the dogs moved the bones to the quarry where they were intermingled with animal bones. I don't know.

That didn't answer my question. Avery and/or Dassey had from 10/31, when the murder occurred, until 11/3 when Halbach was first reported missing, and the first time that the volunteer searchers came onto the property was 11/4. So he/they had 4 days to move the remains wherever they wanted, with absolutely no attention from the authorities, volunteers, or the media? Why did they do such a lousy job?

Maybe there wasn't that much blood. Dassey said in his confession there were only a couple areas of blood in the garage. Blood is an obvious clean-up.

We're talking the garage and the trailer. That's two areas of cleanup. And, if Dassey says there wasn't much blood, then he lied about the wounds that were administered. There is no way she was stabbed in the abdomen, had her throat slit, and was shot thru the skull without a great deal of blood. When I say "no way", I mean that it's a physiological impossibility. Either she bled like a stuck pig, or the wounds Dassey described didn't occur. Yet another set of contradictions that cannot be ignored.

 

[Sandvol]

How did he know her cell phone was thrown into the burn barrel?

 

[bamawriter]

You're talking about a small piece of lead. Do you know how small a 22 lead bullet is and then a fragment of that? If you're not familiar with a 22 bullet go buy one. We're talking half of that-20 grains of lead maybe. Very small.

Fine. I'm not personally ruling the bullet out as legit evidence. I think it may well have been the actual instrument of death.

Once again, I've asked for any other piece of physical evidence other than the bullet that corroborates Dassey's confession.

 

[bamawriter]

How did he know her cell phone was thrown into the burn barrel?

I believe that information was included in the news reports. The same reports that revealed that her body was in the burn pit. That isn't information that only a participant would know.

 

[Sandvol]

I believe that information was included in the news reports. The same reports that revealed that her body was in the burn pit. That isn't information that only a participant would know.

I've looked for that and couldn't find where it was mentioned in any reports. Maybe it was. Not necessarily something Brendan would know. How did Brendan know she had even been shot? That wasn't something that was introduced until trial.

 

[Sandvol]

That didn't answer my question. Avery and/or Dassey had from 10/31, when the murder occurred, until 11/3 when Halbach was first reported missing, and the first time that the volunteer searchers came onto the property was 11/4. So he/they had 4 days to move the remains wherever they wanted, with absolutely no attention from the authorities, volunteers, or the media? Why did they do such a lousy job?

It was their home but was also a place of business. A lot of traffic. Maybe he was biding his time. Maybe he thought they wouldn't tie her to him and then after they did then didn't get the opportunity. Easily understandable.

We're talking the garage and the trailer. That's two areas of cleanup. And, if Dassey says there wasn't much blood, then he lied about the wounds that were administered. There is no way she was stabbed in the abdomen, had her throat slit, and was shot thru the skull without a great deal of blood. When I say "no way", I mean that it's a physiological impossibility. Either she bled like a stuck pig, or the wounds Dassey described didn't occur. Yet another set of contradictions that cannot be ignored.

Often stab victims when treated at an emergency room will not realize they have multiple stab wounds. So, just because she was stabbed doesn't necessarily indicate a lot of blood. Also, Dassey said he cut her throat but didn't kill her and that Avery then choked her to death or to at least unconsciousness. Why would Avery jump on top of her and choke her if she was bleeding like a stuck pig? So, when he cut her throat he obviously didn't cut an artery. Easily explained. What can't be easily explained are all the facts which point at Avery and Dassey.

 

[bamawriter]

How did Brendan know she had even been shot? That wasn't something that was introduced until trial.

The cops told him that during the "what happened to her head" interview. Weigert asked him directly "who shot her in the head" and Dassey answered "he did." Dassey never mentioned the gunshot prior to that.

 

[kev20]

I've looked for that and couldn't find where it was mentioned in any reports. Maybe it was. Not necessarily something Brendan would know. How did Brendan know she had even been shot? That wasn't something that was introduced until trial.

Granted, I didn't read the transcript of his original confession, but didn't one of the douche bag investigators just come out and ask him, "who shot her in the head?" without it ever being brought up by him?

 

[Sandvol]

The cops told him that during the "what happened to her head" interview. Weigert asked him directly "who shot her in the head" and Dassey answered "he did." Dassey never mentioned the gunshot prior to that.

From the documentary? You need to re-read his confession. Brendan brings up Avery grabbing his gun before the cops ever mention it when he describes them taking her to the garage.

 

[bamawriter]

It was their home but was also a place of business. A lot of traffic. Maybe he was biding his time. Maybe he thought they wouldn't tie her to him and then after they did then didn't get the opportunity. Easily understandable.

Actually, that's not understandable at all. For such brilliant clean up artists, it makes absolutely no sense for them to not move those bones anywhere if they had any intention of doing so anytime within that 4 day stretch.

Often stab victims when treated at an emergency room will not realize they have multiple stab wounds. So, just because she was stabbed doesn't necessarily indicate a lot of blood. Also, Dassey said he cut her throat but didn't kill her and that Avery then choked her to death or to at least unconsciousness. Why would Avery jump on top of her and choke her if she was bleeding like a stuck pig? So, when he cut her throat he obviously didn't cut an artery. Easily explained. What can't be easily explained are all the facts which point at Avery and Dassey.

The throat is one of the most, if not the most, vascular areas of the body. If she had her throat slit, and the wound was anything more than you might get shaving in the morning, then she was going to bleed a lot.

But, importantly, I've asked for evidence that corroborates Dassey's confession. There is absolutely not one single shred of evidence that she was either stabbed, had her throat slit, or was choked.

 

[bamawriter]

From the documentary? You need to re-read his confession. Brendan brings up Avery grabbing his gun before the cops ever mention it when he describes them taking her to the garage.

That confession came during Dassey's 4th interview with police. The issue of the gunshot came during an interview before he was even arrested.

 

[Sandvol]

That confession came during Dassey's 4th interview with police. The issue of the gunshot came during an interview before he was even arrested.

Do you have a copy of all the transcripts of Brendan's interviews with the police and the dates they were done?

 

[Sandvol]

Actually, that's not understandable at all. For such brilliant clean up artists, it makes absolutely no sense for them to not move those bones anywhere if they had any intention of doing so anytime within that 4 day stretch.



The throat is one of the most, if not the most, vascular areas of the body. If she had her throat slit, and the wound was anything more than you might get shaving in the morning, then she was going to bleed a lot.

But, importantly, I've asked for evidence that corroborates Dassey's confession. There is absolutely not one single shred of evidence that she was either stabbed, had her throat slit, or was choked.

Have you ever butchered a pig for instance or seen it done? Easy to miss an artery.

 

[Sandvol]

The thing that gets me about Brendan is if he was only a witness to the crime and an unwilling accomplice then why did he volunteer cutting her throat and raping her? He wouldn't need to do that. Why did he tell his cousin that he was an accomplice when she asked him why he was crying?

 

[bamawriter]

Do you have a copy of all the transcripts of Brendan's interviews with the police and the dates they were done?

I'm on my phone, so I may not be able to give you any links until tomorrow. But if you would like to do a little googling, you can already see from the confession that you linked that that was given post-arrest. The interview where the gunshot comes up was his last interview pre-arrest. It came either the day before or the day of the DA's press conference announcing his arrest. I think that makes it either March 3rd or March 4th 2006.

 

[bamawriter]

Have you ever butchered a pig for instance or seen it done? Easy to miss an artery.

In the throat? Actually yeah it's really hard to miss a major vessel. There's a reason that you start by cutting the animal's throat in order to drain it out. One would almost have to make a conscious effort to avoid a major vessel when slitting someone's throat.

 

[Sandvol]

In the throat? Actually yeah it's really hard to miss a major vessel. There's a reason that you start by cutting the animal's throat in order to drain it out. One would almost have to make a conscious effort to avoid a major vessel when slitting someone's throat.

Yes, but if you want to miss a vessel it would be easy to do. He claims she was still alive after he cut her.

 

[Sandvol]

I'm on my phone, so I may not be able to give you any links until tomorrow. But if you would like to do a little googling, you can already see from the confession that you linked that that was given post-arrest. The interview where the gunshot comes up was his last interview pre-arrest. It came either the day before or the day of the DA's press conference announcing his arrest. I think that makes it either March 3rd or March 4th 2006.

Maybe I'll do some more searching over the next few days. Don't have any more time tonight. Please you do the same. Very skeptical of any sequence of events or anything reported from documentary.

 

[bamawriter]

Yes, but if you want to miss a vessel it would be easy to do. He claims she was still alive after he cut her.

Something tells me that that kid isn't exactly an expert on anatomy. I buy that she could have still been alive after having her throat cut. What I don't buy is that she would not have bled a lot.

But again, there is nothing that corroborates any wound other than the gun shot.

 

[bamawriter]

Maybe I'll do some more searching over the next few days. Don't have any more time tonight. Please you do the same. Very skeptical of any sequence of events or anything reported from documentary.

The documentary should be understood as being biased and furthering an agenda. Nothing wrong with your scepticism. Note that I'm not referring you back to the documentary.

 

[PotS]

That's all you got out of his confession was the bleached jeans?

All you got out of my post was the bleached jeans...

Were those jeans entered as evidence? I honestly don't know.

Anyway, I'm not trying to be contradictory for the sake of contradictory, and I'm not trying to throw personal jabs at you, Sand. I wish I had the same conviction you do, either for or against Avery's guilt.

I just can't see hard evidence either way to convict the man.

And before you ask, yes, I've read the transcripts and trial notes and everything the documentary left out. As Bama said, we're well beyond the point of referencing the documentary as a source. I think we all agree its biased and intentionally leans viewers to believe unconditionally in Avery's innocence.