Malaysia Boeing 777

[FLVOL69]

I would like it if he weren't stupid enough to whisper sweet nothings in Putin's ear during his first term.

But hell, I guess I have high expectations.

This is what he meant by having more flexibility

 

[allvol123]

This is what he meant by having more flexibility

True.

But I think it also means he swings both ways.

 

[W.TN.Orange Blood]

http://www.volnation.com/forum/politics/220819-malaysia-boeing-777-a-7.html#post10343969

And I'll still criticize Obama relentlessly.

I totally agree. He's criticized because he brings it upon himself for his lack of leadership & for not bringing people together in unity for which he said he would do.... some of the old hope & change bs.

 

[volprof]

This is what he meant by having more flexibility

I thought that that meant he was a communist.

 

[FLVOL69]

I thought that that meant he was a communist.

That too.. Good catch

 

[W.TN.Orange Blood]

Man, I'm out here in the middle of nowhere in a state forest up north camping. Drinking a few beers, exhausted from backpacking out here. I can't help but to wonder where all this unamerican sentiment came from, especially since it comes from the mouths of some of the stauchest proponents of patriotism and 'american excellence'.

You need to start wondering about the top where Obama dictates policy. He & his administration are the ones that are un-american in their actions or the lack thereof.

 

[Coug]

Did you watch the video?

Yes. I'm looking for more of a scientific explanation than some random Ukrainian guy guessing as to what happened. Some of the bodies that were naked didn't appear to have any obvious burns as if they were in an explosion and got the clothes blown off.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

I'll be serious since you have been (somewhat) serious today. First it needs to be determined the exact reason the plane came down. All signs point towards a SAM at this point, so we'll go on that theory.

If it's the separatists, than the EU, Ukraine and Russia all should join in telling them it's over, lay down your arms and go home. No more fighting. If they refuse, then no holds barred, we give the Ukraine anything they want military wise and they clean house. The EU sets up a peacekeeping force when it's all said and done. Russia will not harbor the insurgents on their soil and will root out all the bases of operations. The separatists will give up, period, end of story. If Russia refuses, see items from below.

If it was a Russian (government) SAM, heavy sanctions, frozen assets of government and private individuals, they give up all claims over the Crimea and eastern Ukraine subject to an EU or UN peacekeeping force. The Ukraine is invited into NATO immediately and the border with Russia gets fortified. Reparations are paid to the Malaysian government as well as to all the families of the victims in an amount determined by the World Court. We start shipping natural gas to Europe as the EU cuts off the supplies. And the military leaders in charge of the SAM site will stand trial as determined by international agreement.

Wow... just wow.

Where do I begin....

Let's start with the low hanging fruit, first. The US cannot practically or economically offset Europe's natural gas demand.

Setting up an EU military presence in The Ukraine was the ultimate goal of the EU and United States from the very beginning. Every since the Ukraine voted not to join the West last fall, the United States has had its hands all over and in The Ukraine causing discourse and disruptions. There is NO WAY the US or EU will be allowed to do that without us going into a "hot" war with Russia.

Reparations... have you heard of the Treaty of Versailles? How did that work out for Germany and the rest of Europe?

Giving up Crimea is laughable. This is another "hot" war with Russia scenario.

Wow... we never should have had John Kerry and the State Department Jackals over in Ukraine meddling around last fall in the first place... that was none of our business. Now, because of our involvement, we are going to step right into a situation (if we follow your plan) into WWIII. Hell, we may already be on the brink right now with this airliner going down.

This isn't the time for posturing and showing who has the bigger set of balls. You guys are going to have to seriously think about what the consequences of sending in NATO/EU/US troops into The Ukraine means.

 

[volprof]

Oh, this about to get good.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Man, I'm out here in the middle of nowhere in a state forest up north camping. Drinking a few beers, exhausted from backpacking out here. I can't help but to wonder where all this unamerican sentiment came from, especially since it comes from the mouths of some of the stauchest proponents of patriotism and 'american excellence'.

Let me just say that I love my country, but we have got some clowns on both sides of the aisles and some evil outside influences that are trying to blow open our borders, violate the Bill of Rights (pick any of the 10 Amendments), bankrupt the country and bring us to the brink of WWIII.

I can't support 95% of what this country is doing right now because it feels like we are in the mouth of madness right now.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

I totally agree. He's criticized because he brings it upon himself for his lack of leadership & for not bringing people together in unity for which he said he would do.... some of the old hope & change bs.

In retrospect, was Bush any better?

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

You need to start wondering about the top where Obama dictates policy. He & his administration are the ones that are un-american in their actions or the lack thereof.

And what alternative do we have? McCain? Romney?

Would either of those clowns been any better?

 

[volprof]

In retrospect, was Bush any better?

Rasputin, you know I give you a hard time, but you know I like you. You're an interesting poster.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Oh, this about to get good.

Real talk... I would just like to start at the very beginning. Can someone explain to me why The State Department was even in The Ukraine and talking with opposition leaders last fall in the first place? Why was that even a US State Department issue? Am I supposed to believe that the Ukraine vote on joining the EU was that important?

Secondly, looking at the EU from the outside looking in, is that a healthy institution? Seriously, can anyone convince me why anyone should be associated with the EU right now? All of the PIGS nations are drowning in debt and madness. The EU economy is probably in worse shape than ours with high social welfare costs, plummeting birth rates and high numbers of unskilled, low wage immigrants that are also taxing the system. Am I to believe that The Ukraine, in 2013/2014, is much better off in the EU?

Really?

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Rasputin, you know I give you a hard time, but you know I like you. You're an interesting poster.

It gets frustrating at times.

 

[Grand Vol]

Wow... just wow.

Where do I begin....

Let's start with the low hanging fruit, first. The US cannot practically or economically offset Europe's natural gas demand.

We can't?

Setting up an EU military presence in The Ukraine was the ultimate goal of the EU and United States from the very beginning. Every since the Ukraine voted not to join the West last fall, the United States has had its hands all over and in The Ukraine causing discourse and disruptions. There is NO WAY the US or EU will be allowed to do that without us going into a "hot" war with Russia.

And the paradigm has changed since last fall.

Reparations... have you heard of the Treaty of Versailles? How did that work out for Germany and the rest of Europe?

Try thinking smaller before you give yourself a stroke. Did we not make reparations for Iran Air 655? Did Israel not make reparations for the USS Liberty? Did Iraq (eventually) make reparations for the USS Stark?

I'm not saying they give up a whole year's worth of GDP for crying out loud.

Giving up Crimea is laughable. This is another "hot" war with Russia scenario.

Is it?

Wow... we never should have had John Kerry and the State Department Jackals over in Ukraine meddling around last fall in the first place... that was none of our business. Now, because of our involvement, we are going to step right into a situation (if we follow your plan) into WWIII. Hell, we may already be on the brink right now with this airliner going down.

I'll disagree with the WWIII thing although that's probably what Infowars is telling you.

As for Kerry...I think we could have had someone else, certainly.

This isn't the time for posturing and showing who has the bigger set of balls. You guys are going to have to seriously think about what the consequences of sending in NATO/EU/US troops into The Ukraine means.

I never mentioned US troops nor did I NATO. I did mention EU. It's Europe's problem, they can deal with it. And it's about time someone stood up to Russia as a united continent. But on the same token, we do need to be there for strategic reassurance.

But as I told VolProf if you'd actually kept reading was none of what I listed was going to happen. Or a very slim chance.

 

[Grand Vol]

Oh, this about to get good.

No, this is the kinder gentler me.

People want to disagree with me, that's all well and good and I expect it because I'm an opinionated SOB. People want to be a douche (and Ras wasn't by any means) and troll the threads, they will get both barrels.

 

[Velo Vol]

Every since the Ukraine voted not to join the West last fall

???

Voted?

Can someone explain to me why The State Department was even in The Ukraine and talking with opposition leaders last fall in the first place? Why was that even a US State Department issue? Am I supposed to believe that the Ukraine vote on joining the EU was that important?

Because it's the US government view that relations with Ukraine will be better with that country in the EU rather than in the Eurasian Customs Union.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Wow... just wow.

Where do I begin....

Let's start with the low hanging fruit, first. The US cannot practically or economically offset Europe's natural gas demand.

We can't?

Nope, right now... today, we are a net importer of natural gas ourselves. We would have to be able to supply our own demand + offset the loss from Russia to supply Europe.

U.S. natural gas imports, 2012‐2014

U.S. natural gas exports, 2012‐2014

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

I'll disagree with the WWIII thing although that's probably what Infowars is telling you.

As for Kerry...I think we could have had someone else, certainly.



I never mentioned US troops nor did I NATO. I did mention EU. It's Europe's problem, they can deal with it. And it's about time someone stood up to Russia as a united continent. But on the same token, we do need to be there for strategic reassurance.

But as I told VolProf if you'd actually kept reading was none of what I listed was going to happen. Or a very slim chance.

If it's Europe's problem, then why was the US State Department there last fall/winter?

Ask anyone outside of VN how touchy putting US/NATO/EU troops (essentially all interchangeable and indistinguishable for the purpose of this conversation and in Russia's eyes) in the Ukraine and forcing them out of Crimea where they have a 300 year presence will lead to a "hot" war.

Let me ask another question, who would be the ones to enforce a Russian withdrawal from Crimea? :unsure:

 

[Cyclopskiller]

Ras.. What's with the Avy? It just wants to know what it means to you.

 

[FLVOL69]

Ras.. What's with the Avy? It just wants to know what it means to you.

Former miss North Korea iirc.

 

[YorkVol]

FYI, interesting challenge the airlines have going from Asia to Europe...

With Ukraine route off-limits, Malaysia Airlines plane flies over Syria instead - The Globe and Mail

 

[Grand Vol]

Nope, right now... today, we are a net importer of natural gas ourselves. We would have to be able to supply our own demand + offset the loss from Russia to supply Europe.

U.S. natural gas imports, 2012‐2014

U.S. natural gas exports, 2012‐2014

Key word being "right now."

And if restrictions were lifted on drilling and exploration and we tell the enviro-nazi crowd to stuff it? It only helps us in the long run.

 

[red butler]

If it's Europe's problem, then why was the US State Department there last fall/winter?

Ask anyone outside of VN how touchy putting US/NATO/EU troops (essentially all interchangeable and indistinguishable for the purpose of this conversation and in Russia's eyes) in the Ukraine and forcing them out of Crimea where they have a 300 year presence will lead to a "hot" war.

Let me ask another question, who would be the ones to enforce a Russian withdrawal from Crimea? :unsure:

Don't forget the recorded telephone conversation between Victoria Nuland and the ambassador to Ukraine where the overthrow of the government was planned. It may be Europe's problem to deal with now... but we started this cluster.