MLB Playoffs

#152
#152
Vercingetorix said:
I get most of that....I just don't get why being a Cubs fan is supposed to be so much more agonizing than being, say, a Brewers fan. Lots of teams never ever EVER win.
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because we're the Cubs and our misery is better.

if it made sense we probably wouldn't be fans either. but that's the best thing about sports, blind allegiance to the cause...
 
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#153
#153
honestly though, i think people believe what they say on TV and much more is made from the Cubs than Giants.

when the Rangers and Red Wings each won the Cup in the 90s, much more was made out of their decades long Stanley Cup droughts, than say the Blues, who have been around since '67 made the playoffs 26 straight years and always came up short.
 
#155
#155
kev20 said:
Much like when a tag is made at home plate and the catcher drops the ball after the collision? Guess that's the only case of a continuation play in baseball.

Or how about if a player swipes at somebody with the ball in their mit and tags them but during the follow through, the ball comes out?

This brings back the A-Rod play as well, where he knocked the ball out of some red sux douche's glove at first base but was called out. Never understood how that differed from someone running over the catcher to try to jar the ball loose - or trying to kick the ball loose on a hard slide.
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Looked to me last night like the catcher controlled the ball, applied the tag as he was falling down, and then the ball came out when his glove hit the ground on the follow-through. The play was already over. Similarly, the purpose of running over the catcher at the plate is to prevent him from controlling the ball long enough to put a tag on the runner.

Honestly, though, the fact that you're defending that bush-league Rodriguez play means that there's probably no point in us having a conversation about this.
 
#156
#156
The runner was already out before the ball was out. Whine all you want, the play was made, and the proper call was made.
And yes, defending that play by A rod is just canceling this entire discussion.

On the bright side, though, Lester threw absolutely amazingly well again, and maybe Pedroia is fixing to get it going. Ells is tearing it up, and Kotsay plays a very respectable first base which puts my mind a little more at ease if Lowell (probably one of the best defensive 3rd baseman in the game) can't go.
I'll admit, I did not wanna go back to LA for a deciding fifth game... I would not have felt all that comfortable with that.
 
#157
#157
Vercingetorix said:
Similarly, the purpose of running over the catcher at the plate is to prevent him from controlling the ball long enough to put a tag on the runner.

Honestly, though, the fact that you're defending that bush-league Rodriguez play means that there's probably no point in us having a conversation about this.
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So, if the catcher has the ball long enough before the runner runs him over, he is out regardless of the continuing action? Why does the ump wait until the play is completely over before making his call?

Not defending the play, just questioning the validity of the others.
 
#158
#158
Not too much to question. He was out, the correct call was made.


Red Sox have some stuff pretty set.

Ells (25)
Pedroia (25)
Papi
Youk (29)
Bay (30)
Drew (32)
Lowell* (34)
Lowrie (24)
Tek* (36)

Crisp and Kotsay as outfielders as well.

Lester (24)
Dice K (28)
Beckett (28)
Wakefield (42) *
Paul Byrd (37) *

* - might need replacing in the nearer future, as much as I love them. Lugo is basically out of a job.

Paps, Delcarmen, Okajima, Lopez, Aardsma in the bullpen.

Maybe pick up another good, young starter in the off season, or hope Buchholz figures it out. See about catcher/third base as well.
 
#160
#160
kev20 said:
So, if the catcher has the ball long enough before the runner runs him over, he is out regardless of the continuing action? Why does the ump wait until the play is completely over before making his call?

Not defending the play, just questioning the validity of the others.
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If the catcher controls the ball long enough and applies a tag, then yes, the runner's out regardless of what else happens. The purpose of barreling into the catcher is to get the ball moving around before he can apply a concrete tag. You have to have both control of the ball and an actual tag to get the out, and it can be difficult to do both with a runner smacking into you at full speed. If the ball comes loose right as the catcher is applying the tag, which you see at the plate a lot, then no out. But the replay from last night seemed pretty clear to me that there was a tag and THEN the ball came out.

One reason why the umps wait so long to make the call at the plate is to ensure that the catcher actually has the ball -- a lot of times on those plays the ball ends up underneath the collision, and the catcher ends up tagging the runner with an empty glove. Another reason why they wait so long is to make sure the runner actually touches the plate.
 
#161
#161
Vercingetorix said:
If the catcher controls the ball long enough and applies a tag, then yes, the runner's out regardless of what else happens. The purpose of barreling into the catcher is to get the ball moving around before he can apply a concrete tag. You have to have both control of the ball and an actual tag to get the out, and it can be difficult to do both with a runner smacking into you at full speed. If the ball comes loose right as the catcher is applying the tag, which you see at the plate a lot, then no out. But the replay from last night seemed pretty clear to me that there was a tag and THEN the ball came out.

One reason why the umps wait so long to make the call at the plate is to ensure that the catcher actually has the ball -- a lot of times on those plays the ball ends up underneath the collision, and the catcher ends up tagging the runner with an empty glove. Another reason why they wait so long is to make sure the runner actually touches the plate.
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don't think so. if he already has the ball before the runner collides into him, and he goes to the ground and the ball pops out, the runner is out? it's continuing action of the play, no?
 
#162
#162
Dbake005 said:
The runner was already out before the ball was out. Whine all you want, the play was made, and the proper call was made.
And yes, defending that play by A rod is just canceling this entire discussion.

On the bright side, though, Lester threw absolutely amazingly well again, and maybe Pedroia is fixing to get it going. Ells is tearing it up, and Kotsay plays a very respectable first base which puts my mind a little more at ease if Lowell (probably one of the best defensive 3rd baseman in the game) can't go.
I'll admit, I did not wanna go back to LA for a deciding fifth game... I would not have felt all that comfortable with that.
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Jason Bay has been great.
 
#163
#163
kev20 said:
don't think so. if he already has the ball before the runner collides into him, and he goes to the ground and the ball pops out, the runner is out? it's continuing action of the play, no?
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The problem is that there's nothing in the rules (that I'm aware of, or that I can find on a cursory search) that defines how long the fielder has to hold the ball or exactly what constitutes a tag. I'd agree that the general principle is that the runner is safe if the ball comes out during the play. If I'm standing at home holding the ball and you barrel into me at full speed while I'm trying to put the tag on, and the ball comes out as we're falling down, then that's evidence that I did not have control over the ball as I was tagging you. I'd agree that you're safe. The reason the runner was called out last night, IMO, was that the umpire believed that the ball came out AFTER the play, not as part of it -- i.e., he tagged him, the tag was over, and then the catcher's glove hit the ground and the ball came out. It seems like the right call to me, sort of along the lines that you see runners called out at second all the time when a fielder drops the ball after making a force play.

But yeah, an argument could probably be made that that kind of ruling is a little too bang-bang for baseball. As I said, the rulebook doesn't seem to help out very much by rigidly defining this stuff.
 
#164
#164
Vercingetorix said:
The problem is that there's nothing in the rules (that I'm aware of, or that I can find on a cursory search) that defines how long the fielder has to hold the ball or exactly what constitutes a tag. I'd agree that the general principle is that the runner is safe if the ball comes out during the play. If I'm standing at home holding the ball and you barrel into me at full speed while I'm trying to put the tag on, and the ball comes out as we're falling down, then that's evidence that I did not have control over the ball as I was tagging you. I'd agree that you're safe. The reason the runner was called out last night, IMO, was that the umpire believed that the ball came out AFTER the play, not as part of it -- i.e., he tagged him, the tag was over, and then the catcher's glove hit the ground and the ball came out. It seems like the right call to me, sort of along the lines that you see runners called out at second all the time when a fielder drops the ball after making a force play.

But yeah, an argument could probably be made that that kind of ruling is a little too bang-bang for baseball. As I said, the rulebook doesn't seem to help out very much by rigidly defining this stuff.
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That is how I saw it Verc.
 
#165
#165
Vercingetorix said:
The problem is that there's nothing in the rules (that I'm aware of, or that I can find on a cursory search) that defines how long the fielder has to hold the ball or exactly what constitutes a tag. I'd agree that the general principle is that the runner is safe if the ball comes out during the play. If I'm standing at home holding the ball and you barrel into me at full speed while I'm trying to put the tag on, and the ball comes out as we're falling down, then that's evidence that I did not have control over the ball as I was tagging you. I'd agree that you're safe. The reason the runner was called out last night, IMO, was that the umpire believed that the ball came out AFTER the play, not as part of it -- i.e., he tagged him, the tag was over, and then the catcher's glove hit the ground and the ball came out. It seems like the right call to me, sort of along the lines that you see runners called out at second all the time when a fielder drops the ball after making a force play.

But yeah, an argument could probably be made that that kind of ruling is a little too bang-bang for baseball. As I said, the rulebook doesn't seem to help out very much by rigidly defining this stuff.
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This was actually my first thought as well.
I also could not find a rule in the rule book.
There are plenty of things wrong with baseball though. Somehow the fielders get the benefit of the doubt a lot on most double play balls. Wonder when this all started. I always assumed you had to actually touch the base to force someone out.
 
#166
#166
kev20 said:
This was actually my first thought as well.
I also could not find a rule in the rule book.
There are plenty of things wrong with baseball though. Somehow the fielders get the benefit of the doubt a lot on most double play balls. Wonder when this all started. I always assumed you had to actually touch the base to force someone out.
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Personally, I love every bit of it.
 
#167
#167
kev20 said:
This was actually my first thought as well.
I also could not find a rule in the rule book.
There are plenty of things wrong with baseball though. Somehow the fielders get the benefit of the doubt a lot on most double play balls. Wonder when this all started. I always assumed you had to actually touch the base to force someone out.
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the runner often gets the benefit of doubt running to first base, so things work themselves out.

as for this particular call, i just now got around to seeing the replay. i think it was a horrible call and there is no way he should have been called out.

if this has already been said forgive me, but think about it like this.

you have a runner on first. a ball is then hit to right-center field, causing the runner to create a play at third base where a tag needs to be applied in order to throw the runner out.

the runner dives headfirst at the bag at almost the same time the ball is caught by the third-baseman. the runner gets in before the tag is applied, thereby making him safe. however, his momentum carries him past the bag and he can't keep his foot on it as he slides by. the runner is then tagged out and the ump reverses his call and rings him up.

i was taught when i played that you NEVER take you hand or foot off the bag until you SPECIFICALLY here the ump call time. only then is the play over and the ball dead. i was also taught that if the play is close, always show the ball to ump. always.

the same thing should apply in this case. runner is safe and it changes the complexion of the game. terrible call to blow in the playoffs.
 
#168
#168
Just saw about replays from about a half-dozen angles. Clearly out. He tags the runner on the arse. He pulls the glove back away from the arse after the tag. Then he falls down, and when he falls down, the ball comes out. The ball coming out was not part of the tag.

You can be safe safe safe safe WAIT NOW HE'S OUT!!!!, as Doozer describes above, but you can't be out out out, oh no, now he's safe again. Being out is like being dead. You can't come back from it.
 
#169
#169
the ball coming out was part of the continuation of the play. if the ump hasn't called time, it's a live play.
 
#170
#170
doozer said:
the runner often gets the benefit of doubt running to first base, so things work themselves out.

not sure what you mean by this. if you are referring to the tie going to the runner, I believe that is a rule.

as for this particular call, i just now got around to seeing the replay. i think it was a horrible call and there is no way he should have been called out.

if this has already been said forgive me, but think about it like this.

you have a runner on first. a ball is then hit to right-center field, causing the runner to create a play at third base where a tag needs to be applied in order to throw the runner out.

the runner dives headfirst at the bag at almost the same time the ball is caught by the third-baseman. the runner gets in before the tag is applied, thereby making him safe. however, his momentum carries him past the bag and he can't keep his foot on it as he slides by. the runner is then tagged out and the ump reverses his call and rings him up.

This is a rule. There was no rule listed that anyone could find on the play in question.

i was taught when i played that you NEVER take you hand or foot off the bag until you SPECIFICALLY here the ump call time. only then is the play over and the ball dead. i was also taught that if the play is close, always show the ball to ump. always.

the same thing should apply in this case. runner is safe and it changes the complexion of the game. terrible call to blow in the playoffs.
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Needless to say, there should have at least been a conference between the umpire crew. The left field ump should have questioned the call if anything. He should have been looking at the play and seen the ball come out. The 3rd base ump didn't actually follow the play the whole way through. Only after the Angel's players pointed out the ball did he know the ball was out of the glove.
 
#171
#171
the rule is you have to apply the tag and hold on to the ball.

that clearly did not happen in this case.
 
#172
#172
i'm actually with vercin on this one. continuation of a play at the plate is one thing. You are crashing into the catcher at the time of the tag and as he is losing the ball. Varitek had the ball securely the entire time of the tag, then dropped it. It's not as if he's catching the ball and then tagging, or catching the ball as if it's a forceout. All he had to do was tag him out, which he did. The play was over. Hitting the ground and then losing the ball was after the tag. I'm fine with the call.
 
#173
#173
like i said above, technically the ball isn't dead until the ump calls time, right?
 
#174
#174
doozer said:
like i said above, technically the ball isn't dead until the ump calls time, right?
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Live play on the field isn't dead until the ump calls time. The tag, however, would already be over and finalized IMO regardless of when the ump calls time.

I'm not an expert, but I've seen a lot of baseball including a lot of time helping keep the books. That's how I would interpret that rule.
 
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