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#77
#77
TGVol said:
No question about it. The refs were supposed to stand over the ball and not let LSU snap it until we had opportunity to react to their substitutions - we were not given this opportunity - go back and watch that tape again (and this was discussed back then as well, it's not like I'm the first to bring this up).
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Actually, the ref did stand over the ball long enough for UT to get two guys onto the field. Which means the Vols had ample time to run 2 guys off. No one made any indication that he (they) planned to leave the field, so the umpire stepped away from the ball.
 
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#78
#78
bamawriter said:
Actually, the ref did stand over the ball long enough for UT to get two guys onto the field. Which means the Vols had ample time to run 2 guys off. No one made any indication that he (they) planned to leave the field, so the umpire stepped away from the ball.
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This very accurately describes all the problems with the way that game ended (including LSU not being penalized for throwing helmets which if called properly would have put the ball on 17 yard line for that last play).

Tennessee Vs. LSU, Too Many Men Debacle: The Morning After | Bleacher Report
 
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#79
#79
TGVol said:
This very accurately describes all the problems with the way that game ended (including LSU not being penalized for throwing helmets which if called properly would have put the ball on 17 yard line for that last play).

Tennessee Vs. LSU, Too Many Men Debacle: The Morning After | Bleacher Report
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I'm going to assume that by "very accurately" you mean "biased by homerism and butthurt". The helmet issue is beyond irrelevant. And he complains about no flags being thrown, which is also totally irrelevant since too many men on the field is a reviewable penalty.
 
#80
#80
bamawriter said:
I'm going to assume that by "very accurately" you mean "biased by homerism and butthurt". The helmet issue is beyond irrelevant. And he complains about no flags being thrown, which is also totally irrelevant since too many men on the field is a reviewable penalty.
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What is the rule about the official standing over the ball? I just watched the replay and the official moved away from the ball....then LSU sent 3 players onto the field. The camera had moved away from the ball but an official was back over the ball as the new LSU players ran on the field and backed away in the middle of UT's confusion (about the 4 second mark).
 
#81
#81
Boca Vol said:
What is the rule about the official standing over the ball? I just watched the replay and the official moved away from the ball....then LSU sent 3 players onto the field. The camera had moved away from the ball but an official was back over the ball as the new LSU players ran on the field and backed away in the middle of UT's confusion (about the 4 second mark).
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The ump is supposed to stand over the ball as soon as he notices the offense begin to sub. In this case, I'm sure he started to move away because it was beyond all logical thought that LSU would sub in that situation. But he moved back as soon as he saw LSU's guys come running out.
 
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#82
#82
bamawriter said:
I'm going to assume that by "very accurately" you mean "biased by homerism and butthurt". The helmet issue is beyond irrelevant. And he complains about no flags being thrown, which is also totally irrelevant since too many men on the field is a reviewable penalty.
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You assume wrong. But that's no surprise given you are bamawriter (no credibility). My guess is if Bama was involved in that play helmet issue would have been very relevant to you and probably caused those refs to be either dead or under 24 hour police protection from crazed elephants.
 
#83
#83
TGVol said:
You assume wrong. But that's no surprise given you are bamawriter (no credibility). My guess is if Bama was involved in that play helmet issue would have been very relevant to you and probably caused those refs to be either dead or under 24 hour police protection from crazed elephants.
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I'll give you the opportunity to explain how the helmet issue was relevant, since your link was incapable of doing so.
 
#84
#84
bamawriter said:
I'll give you the opportunity to explain how the helmet issue was relevant, since your link was incapable of doing so.
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LSU should have been penalized 15 yards for unsportsmanlike conduct for player taking helmet off and slamming the helmet to the ground. If the game was over this would not matter - but since they went to review what happened they should have applied ALL penalties - not only the one that benefited LSU.
 
#86
#86
TrueOrange said:
That's really not too great an article.
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I agree this article is not going to win Pulitzer prize any time soon - but it does accurately point out major problems with the way refs handled the end of that game. It's pretty clear that LSU confusion on their sideline was enormous (Miles in another article said he already cut off communications with his OC by removing his headset). Anyhow, their substitutions were clearly chaotic enough where the refs should have given us more time to properly react, and unsportsmanlike penalty should have been called for throwing the helmet.
 
#87
#87
TGVol said:
LSU should have been penalized 15 yards for unsportsmanlike conduct for player taking helmet off and slamming the helmet to the ground. If the game was over this would not matter - but since they went to review what happened they should have applied ALL penalties - not only the one that benefited LSU.
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Understood. But despite the fact that you acknowledge that both teams committed penalties, you seem to be of the belief that LSU's foul was more significant than Tennessee's. The fact is the penalties would have offset. The down would have been replayed one way or the other. The only difference would have been LSU needing a few extra inches for the score.
 
#88
#88
bamawriter said:
Understood. But despite the fact that you acknowledge that both teams committed penalties, you seem to be of the belief that LSU's foul was more significant than Tennessee's. The fact is the penalties would have offset. The down would have been replayed one way or the other. The only difference would have been LSU needing a few extra inches for the score.
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I think our penalty was the result of the refs who after the review among all the craziness that followed on the LSU sideline should have given us more time to substitute. LSU sideline still looked like they were substituting or considering substitutions (people running all over the place) so the refs should have stayed over the ball and not let them snap it until their sideline calmed down and we had the chance to react (our players looked confused - they were still looking at their sideline to see who is coming in/out). Their penalty (that was not called) was caused by them believing they lost the game so player slammed his helmet. And in terms of yards (if both penalties were applied) I don't know how this would have been resolved - unsportsmanlike conduct is 15 yards for sure, but what is too many players on the field? Isn't it 5 yards and/or automatic first down? If that's the case they would still have been on the 12 yard line and would have had to throw the ball instead of run it in from 2 yardline.
 
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#89
#89
TGVol said:
I think our penalty was the result of the refs who after the review among all the craziness that followed on the LSU sideline should have given us more time to substitute. LSU sideline still looked like they were substituting or considering substitutions (people running all over the place) so the refs should have stayed over the ball and not let them snap it until their sideline calmed down and we had the chance to react (our players looked confused - they were still looking at their sideline to see who is coming in/out). Their penalty (that was not called) was caused by them believing they lost the game so player slammed his helmet. And in terms of yards (if both penalties were applied) I don't know how this would have been resolved - unsportsmanlike conduct is 15 yards for sure, but what is too many players on the field? Isn't it 5 yards and/or automatic first down? If that's the case they would still have been on the 12 yard line and would have had to throw the ball instead of run it in from 2 yardline.
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It doesn't matter the severity, they simply offset and the down is replayed....if both were considered live-ball fouls.
 
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#90
#90
TGVol said:
I think our penalty was the result of the refs who after the review among all the craziness that followed on the LSU sideline should have given us more time to substitute. LSU sideline still looked like they were substituting or considering substitutions (people running all over the place) so the refs should have stayed over the ball and not let them snap it until their sideline calmed down and we had the chance to react (our players looked confused - they were still looking at their sideline to see who is coming in/out). Their penalty (that was not called) was caused by them believing they lost the game so player slammed his helmet. And in terms of yards (if both penalties were applied) I don't know how this would have been resolved - unsportsmanlike conduct is 15 yards for sure, but what is too many players on the field? Isn't it 5 yards and/or automatic first down? If that's the case they would still have been on the 12 yard line and would have had to throw the ball instead of run it in from 2 yardline.
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I'd agree with your take on the substitution if anyone even gave an indication that he intended to leave the field. You are to be given the chance to sub, but that doesn't mean two guys can get all the way onto the field, then have a discussion about who is coming off.

And the penalty that was called on UT was illegal participation which, at the time, was a 15 yard foul. So it would have offset any unsportsmanlike penalty on LSU.
 
#91
#91
TGVol said:
I agree this article is not going to win Pulitzer prize any time soon - but it does accurately point out major problems with the way refs handled the end of that game. It's pretty clear that LSU confusion on their sideline was enormous (Miles in another article said he already cut off communications with his OC by removing his headset). Anyhow, their substitutions were clearly chaotic enough where the refs should have given us more time to properly react, and unsportsmanlike penalty should have been called for throwing the helmet.
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[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mAHgD-8k9U[/youtube]

There's no real rule, nor should there be one, where a team for simply making a miscommunication to player's on the field, from its sidelines, should have the kind of positive or negative officiating effect being suggested, especially in this case. (Checking the video, there was pretty much a 20 second period the substitutions were made in, during which the first team made theirs and the second team had already reacted and made their own.)


You either end up essentially giving a free clock stoppage to the offense - a team without any timeouts left - because the defense is having issues/ can't get itself together. That almost rewards the offense for the miscommunication.

Or you end up stopping the clock because the defense is having issues/difficulty adjusting (a running clock mind you), essentially punishing an offense that got itself setup with enough time left on the clock to run a play because the defense messed up or was having its own difficulties with on its adjustments/substitutions. The refs going "well you're opponent's having trouble getting set up after their substitutions so we're just going to go ahead and let the game end" isn't really better at all.


Neither are really ways that game should have played out or ended considering that factor of circumstances.



Plus the video shows it (from around 2:25 to 2:50). LSU brought 3 guys on and three guys went off, then Tennessee calls 3 players off the field, then the coaches sends 4 players onto the field, and then one of the 3 leaving the field turns around and comes back on the field (meaning one of the coaches told him to go back out there). LSU's, while last second, were pretty much a quick in and out; it was TN's reaction to it after subbing out their own 3 players that became a mess.
 
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#92
#92
TGVol said:
I think our penalty was the result of the refs who after the review among all the craziness that followed on the LSU sideline should have given us more time to substitute. LSU sideline still looked like they were substituting or considering substitutions (people running all over the place) so the refs should have stayed over the ball and not let them snap it until their sideline calmed down and we had the chance to react (our players looked confused - they were still looking at their sideline to see who is coming in/out). Their penalty (that was not called) was caused by them believing they lost the game so player slammed his helmet. And in terms of yards (if both penalties were applied) I don't know how this would have been resolved - unsportsmanlike conduct is 15 yards for sure, but what is too many players on the field? Isn't it 5 yards and/or automatic first down? If that's the case they would still have been on the 12 yard line and would have had to throw the ball instead of run it in from 2 yardline.
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There's no signs from the video, at least, that they were looking how to further bring in and out based off of the defense's substitutions. They took off 3 and sent in 3 with about 15-16 seconds left and that was it. It was actually - considering the circumstances - fairly clean on the field, surprisingly.

Our sideline had a chance to react and did. The problem was the coaches on our side did so incorrectly and sent too many people out their twice (once with the initial substitution, and then again when they told one of the leaving players to go back onto the field).
 
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#95
#95
To me it looked like players tried to come off the field, then ran back to their spots. If you think there wasn't time for us to have 11 men off the field, you are pathetically subjective in the matter.
 
#99
#99
crusse10 said:
To me it looked like players tried to come off the field, then ran back to their spots. If you think there wasn't time for us to have 11 men off the field, you are pathetically subjective in the matter.
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Don't disagree.

Watch it from to 2:25 to 2:50 though. They show the whole transition without the camera pulling away (like CBS did during the live play).

The coaches pulled three off, sent four on in their place, and then one of the coaches told one of the three leaving the field to turn back around.
 
#100
#100
TrueOrange said:
Don't disagree.

Watch it from to 2:25 to 2:50 though. They show the whole transition without the camera pulling away (like CBS did during the live play).

The coaches pulled three off, sent four on in their place, and then one of the coaches told one of the three leaving the field to turn back around.
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Nice detective work! :detective:
 
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