MVP and ROTY

Who is the NFL's Most Valuable Player?

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#251
#251
AP and Calvin Johnson should split the offensive player of the year award.
Peyton is the MVP. He has installed his offense in Denver and now they are the best team in the league. No player is more valuable than Peyton this year.
 
#252
#252
There is no way a RB who plays around 75% of the downs can have the value of the best QB unless he runs for like 3000 yards. Manning has his hands on the ball every play. He calls every play. He makes assignments for his teammates at the line of schrimmage on every play. How can a RB provide that much value in the current NFL? It's not happening.
 
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#254
#254
n_huffhines said:
There is no way a RB who plays around 75% of the downs can have the value of the best QB unless he runs for like 3000 yards. Manning has his hands on the ball every play. He calls every play. He makes assignments for his teammates at the line of schrimmage on every play. How can a RB provide that much value in the current NFL? It's not happening.
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When you're the sole reason your team makes the playoffs, yes, your are the league's MVP.
 
#255
#255
Burhead said:
When you're the sole reason your team makes the playoffs, yes, your are the league's MVP.
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That's complete hyperbole, but nice argument.

The Vikings won 6 games where they held the opposition to 14 or less. AP gets all the credit for that, right?
 
#256
#256
Is there anybody here who doubts the Vikings would make the playoffs with Peyton Manning and an average RB? I don't doubt it.

Who here thinks Denver would be 13-3 with AP and an average QB? I doubt it.
 
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#257
#257
n_huffhines said:
Is there anybody here who doubts the Vikings would make the playoffs with Peyton Manning and an average RB? I don't doubt it.

Who here thinks Denver would be 13-3 with AP and an average QB? I doubt it.
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They were 8-8 last year no one even close to AP, and an awful qb in Tebow.

So they may actually make 13-3 with your scenario.

After all, Denver only beat 2 teams with winning records this year.
 
#258
#258
n_huffhines said:
That's complete hyperbole, but nice argument.

The Vikings won 6 games where they held the opposition to 14 or less. AP gets all the credit for that, right?
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The Broncos won 7 games where they held oppoents to 14 or less. Does Peyton get credit for those?
 
#259
#259
TheDeeble said:
The Broncos won 7 games where they held oppoents to 14 or less. Does Peyton get credit for those?
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I'm not the guy saying Manning's the "sole reason...", numb-nuts.

That being said, the strength of the Broncos D is the pass rush and so playing with a lead greatly benefits them (and this is indisputable). The Broncos are 2nd in scoring, so needless to say they played with a lot of leads. Manning does deserve some of the credit.

They went from 24th to 4th in scoring D with pretty much the same personnel.
 
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#260
#260
TheDeeble said:
They were 8-8 last year no one even close to AP, and an awful qb in Tebow.

So they may actually make 13-3 with your scenario.

After all, Denver only beat 2 teams with winning records this year.
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8-8 isn't even close to 13-3 and I'm willing to bet AP is a lot more effective behind the Vikings' O-line than he would be behind Denver's. For the last few years Denver's only been able to run effectively out of Tebow's read option. Even with the threat of Manning's arm their run game is less than average.
 
#263
#263
volfanbill said:
that same team that won 2 games last year was consistently winning 10+ games a year with Manning. Luck threw 90 bazillion passes, in which only 45 bazillion were caught and 20 bazillion of them were interceptions. Throwing lots of yards when all your team does is pass shouldn't be considered an accomplishment.
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It's not about yards. Luck actually ran a real pro-style offense, as opposed to the zone-read option offense that RGIII and Newton ran as rookies where they never, ever, ever (especially RGIII) threw a pass longer than 20 yards.

And you have to be kidding with that first statement. Anyone who knows football can see that the Colts have had a terrible run game, terrible line, and terrible defense for years now. Acting like it's some kind of good supporting cast and ignoring the fact that both Manning and Luck made that team at least 6-7 wins better than it should have been is ludicrous.

His QBR is one of the worst in the league,
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11th is "one of the worst in the league?" I guess RGIII QBs one of the worst teams in the league then. How can such a bad team produce the ROY?
 
#264
#264
Funniest part of the entire debate is people tearing down rg3 and Wilson for running effective offenses.
 
#265
#265
VKAman said:
It's not about yards. Luck actually ran a real pro-style offense, as opposed to the zone-read option offense that RGIII and Newton ran as rookies where they never, ever, ever (especially RGIII) threw a pass longer than 20 yards.

And you have to be kidding with that first statement. Anyone who knows football can see that the Colts have had a terrible run game, terrible line, and terrible defense for years now. Acting like it's some kind of good supporting cast and ignoring the fact that both Manning and Luck made that team at least 6-7 wins better than it should have been is ludicrous.


11th is "one of the worst in the league?" I guess RGIII QBs one of the worst teams in the league then. How can such a bad team produce the ROY?
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RG3 had an 8.1 YPA this year. That led the league. And his YPC was fifth in the NFL this year.
 
#266
#266
zjcvols said:
RG3 had an 8.1 YPA this year. That led the league. And his YPC was fifth in the NFL this year.
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That's because of plays like Pierre Garcon's first touchdown, where Griffin makes a 15-yard throw and the receiver covers the other 70.

Luck‘s average pass attempt has traveled 10.2 yards past the line of scrimmage, the longest average pass distance in the league. Griffin averages 7.9 yards downfield per pass attempt, slightly below the league average of 8.2.

And Luck’s long average pass distance isn’t simply a product of throwing lots of incomplete passes down the field. His average pass distance on completions is 8.6 yards past the line of scrimmage, also highest in the NFL. Griffin’s completions come an average of 5.8 yards from the line of scrimmage, well below the league average of 6.5.

Griffin has thrown only 14 percent of his passes 15-plus yards past the line of scrimmage, the lowest rate in the league. Luck has thrown only 11 percent of his passes at or behind the line of scrimmage, while Griffin is in an offense that has let him throw 44 passes at or behind the line, accounting for 23 percent of his attempts.

Much of Griffin’s production has come via yards after the catch. On average, passers in 2012 have gained 56 percent of their yards through the air and 44 percent on yards after the catch by their receivers. For Griffin, 51.4 percent of his yards have come via his receivers after the catch, the fifth-highest mark in the league. Luck, in large part because of his downfield passing, has gained 68.9 percent of his yards through the air, the highest percentage in the league, and therefore has been helped the least in terms of yards after the catch.
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#267
#267
005 said:
Funniest part of the entire debate is people tearing down rg3 and Wilson for running effective offenses.
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Option offenses aren't effective for very long. If RGIII wants to be a franchise guy, he's going to have to develop and run an offense more like what Luck is already running now.

Not saying he can't do it, because I believe he can, but my point is that he can't just keep running this offense and expect the same results.
 
#268
#268
VKAman said:
That's because of plays like Pierre Garcon's first touchdown, where Griffin makes a 15-yard throw and the receiver covers the other 70.
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I stand corrected.

However, he can throw the deep ball.

The option is fine to have as a weapon. You can't run it as your main running attack.
 
#269
#269
I'll take Russell Wilson for ROTY. He has no Wideouts to work with.

I'll be different for MVP: Give me Aaron Rodgers. The guy had a revolving door at wideout because of injuries. His running backs are awful. He was sacked 8.5% of time he was attempting a pass (second highest in the league behind Alex Smith). The defense was inconsistent. And he led them to 11-5 in a tough division. He had the third highest completion percentage (67.2%), the highest TD%, the fifth most yards per attempt, the fourth highest QBR, and the highest passer rating, an absolute sick 39-8 TD/INTO ration, and all while having the third lowest INT% this season despite throwing the ball 552 times this year.
 
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#272
#272
Aaron Rodgers deserves to have his case made, but I don't think he can complain about his WRs since he's got 4 with immense talent, and that's not including Finley. He gets sacked a lot, but in many cases the QB is at fault for sacks. Didn't read the blitz and make the right pre-snap assignment, held onto the ball too long, etc. Some guys (like Manning and Brady) have such good pocket awareness and snap-to-release timing that they are very difficult to sack, regardless of how good their line is.

I can't remember the exact numbers, but they showed a graph during a game where the average NFL QB was something like 3.2 seconds from snap to throw, and the outlier was Manning with like 2.4 seconds or something like that. I just remember it was a crazy margin of difference.
 
#273
#273
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#275
#275
The ability to stay healthy is partly luck, but it's partly about risk-taking, and I feel like RGIII takes a lot more risks than Wilson, so I think his injury is a fair knock on his style of play.
 
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