National day of Prayer Sept. 25, 2009?????

#76
#76
JZVOL said:
So you are assuming anyone who believes in God does so because we don't fully understand something?

There is only one faith based idea or fact if you will in Christianity and that is that Jesus is the Son of God and died on a cross to save us.

When has that changed?
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no I believe most do it because it's easier than the realization that life ends when you die. People don't want to deal with that. IMO that's much easier for me to believe than a guy rising after death and ascending into heaven
 
#77
#77
JZVOL said:
And my pastor went to school and then went to seminary and is a doctor and learned how to diagnose problems of the heart and spirit.

So no doctor has every made the wrong diagnoses, no mechanic has ever screwed anyone over and bridges have never collapsed? That's reality as well.
Yet even though these mistakes have been made you put your faith in them that they are being truthful and 100% accurate with you because they tell you so.
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Your comparison here is weak.

Who else are you going to put faith in to fix your illness? You can go to a witchdoctor, but you have better reasons for going to a doctor. Until witchdoctors start healing people in mass numbers, I'm going to a doctor with the understanding they will do a better job, mistakes aside.

So are you saying that Muslims seeking the advice of Imams, who have the required training and education of Islam are not wasting their time?
 
#78
#78
utvolpj said:
of course it doesn't work that way. If it had any basis in reality it wouldn't be called faith, it would be called fact.
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How can you know that and can you irrefutably prove such??

Proverbs; 1:1-7

The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel;

To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding;

To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice and judgement, and equity;

To give subtilty to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion.

A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:

To understand a proverb, and the interpretaion; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

(note, the word 'fear' as it appears in the last verse might be better translated into Egnlish as 'have profound respect for' or something along those lines, we don't really have a word in English to equate to the original word, suffice it to say it doesn't really mean 'to be afraid of.')gs

Proverbs; 3:1-7

My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:

For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee.

Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart:

So shalt thou find favour ane good understanding in the sight of God and man.

Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

In all thy ways acdknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
 
#79
#79
utvolpj said:
no I believe most do it because it's easier than the realization that life ends when you die. People don't want to deal with that. IMO that's much easier for me to believe than a guy rising after death and ascending into heaven
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For me, life becomes much more precious and beautiful with the understanding that this is it, make the most of it.
 
#80
#80
JZVOL said:
So you are assuming anyone who believes in God does so because we don't fully understand something?

There is only one faith based idea or fact if you will in Christianity and that is that Jesus is the Son of God and died on a cross to save us.

When has that changed?
Click to expand...


I'm assuming that all of us don't fully understand everything, just some see fit to insert God into the gaps. Some take it a step further and give that God a name, story, and profession of what he wants from us.
 
#81
#81
gsvol said:
The same way newsweak and other like minded ones in our culture have bastardized jounalism??

Malachi 3:6
"I am the Lord, I change not.......

Proverbs 24:21
"My son, fear thou the Lord and the king: and meddle not with them that are given to change."

Do you have any sort of opinion at all about the muslim day of prayer in Washington scheduled for day after tomorrow??

Do you think Barry will acknowledge and sanction it or lay low somewhere else??



A funny typo by rj...."I'm just wandering."

A simple humble prayer could be the answer; "Lord reveal your presence unto me."

If nothing happens, no harm no foul.

If something does, a whole life may be transformed and a lost soul recovered.
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Newsweek doesn't effect eternal life.

:hi:
 
#83
#83
rjd970 said:
For me, life becomes much more precious and beautiful with the understanding that this is it, make the most of it.
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I don't see how believing in an after life would change the making the most of it. I would think it would enhance that.
 
#85
#85
rjd970 said:
Your comparison here is weak.

Who else are you going to put faith in to fix your illness? You can go to a witchdoctor, but you have better reasons for going to a doctor. Until witchdoctors start healing people in mass numbers, I'm going to a doctor with the understanding they will do a better job, mistakes aside.

So are you saying that Muslims seeking the advice of Imams, who have the required training and education of Islam are not wasting their time?
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I can't seem to find anywhere I brought up Muslims. I typically don't discuss things I don't find value in, which is why it's always strange to me you show up in every religious thread if you find no value in it.
 
#88
#88
rjd970 said:
I'm assuming that all of us don't fully understand everything, just some see fit to insert God into the gaps. Some take it a step further and give that God a name, story, and profession of what he wants from us.
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What gap am I inserting God into exactly?
 
#89
#89
JZVOL said:
I can't seem to find anywhere I brought up Muslims. I typically don't discuss things I don't find value in, which is why it's always strange to me you show up in every religious thread if you find no value in it.
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hater_tots1.jpg
 
#90
#90
gsvol said:
But newsweak does bastardize our culture.

So you believe in eternal life??

(do you mean 'effect' or 'affect?')
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I have no idea what you are talking about.

North American christians have bastardized the message of Christ.
 
#91
#91
utvolpj said:
you think that but I think it was a good work of fiction that's been used to control man for a long time.
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How would Christ's teachings control me in the way you mean?

What teaching, government or any function in the history of the Earth has not been abused by man for selfish purposes?
 
#93
#93
JZVOL said:
How would Christ's teachings control me in the way you mean?
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why were certain books chosen and certain ones not? Why would there need to be more than 1 version of the bible ever made? I doubt Christ's teaching have changed over time.

JZVOL said:
What teaching, government or any function in the history of the Earth has not been abused by man for selfish purposes?
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absolutely none
 
#94
#94
utvolpj said:
why were certain books chosen and certain ones not? Why would there need to be more than 1 version of the bible ever made? I doubt Christ's teaching have changed over time.



absolutely none
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So how does this prove Christ is a made up story to control me?
 
#95
#95
utvolpj said:
why were certain books chosen and certain ones not? Why would there need to be more than 1 version of the bible ever made? I doubt Christ's teaching have changed over time.



absolutely none
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Great question with no solid answer!

:hi:

Huh? None have ever abused any one but the Bible has?

:banghead2:
 
#96
#96
OrangeEmpire said:
Really?

Nothing at all?????

:dunno:
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if I do something in my life it has no bearing on what the bible says I should do. If I don't subscribe to the main ideas of the book (JC as my savior, etc.) why would I choose certain parts to live by. Writing down ideas that have been around since man could form a complete thought does not make it god's idea
 
#97
#97
utvolpj said:
if I do something in my life it has no bearing on what the bible says I should do. If I don't subscribe to the main ideas of the book (JC as my savior, etc.) why would I choose certain parts to live by. Writing down ideas that have been around since man could form a complete thought does not make it god's idea
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I never said it did. The ideas have been around for centuries. Just because it is in the bible does not make it a bad practice.

:mf_surrender:
 
#98
#98
rjd970 said:
I think the first sentence says a lot about why you believe the way you do. Me, on the otherhand, I can give any number of things that would convert me to Christianity right now. It's about weighing the evidence and being open to being mistaken, or at least knowing what it would take to be wrong. And Gravity isn't circular logic, FWIW. "What is gravity? The tendency for objects to be drawn to one another. Why are objects drawn to one another? We don't exactly know, but there are a number of theories of what we think is happening." Maybe it's hard to understand for some, but the strength of science is that absolutes are rare and it is continually changing, with faith absolutes seem to be in abundance.

What archeological evidence is there that God exists and everything in the Bible is correct? Just wandering.

As far as your last question, I don't need comfort that this isn't all there is.
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RJD - based on your last response it seems that I may have some how offended you. If so, I apologize... that was certainly not my intent. I thought we were having a rather civil discussion. However, I will gladly try to address your questions/comments as best I can.

I gave the most honest answer I could to your original question, which is that I do not know how to answer it. Anything is possible though it may not be able to be proven, and the only thing impossible is proving the impossible. So how do you prove that something is false or does not exist? We have all seen suggested evidence that bigfoot, the loch ness monster, aliens (feel free to add your own example) all exist, and we can either choose to believe or disbelieve the evidence presented. However, can anyone prove that they DO NOT exist? There was a scientist (I do not recall his name) that studied 10,000 mice and his conclusion was (paraphrased)... "I can state that all the mice observed have only one tail, and since none of them have two tails therefore no mice have two tails; but I can not prove that mice can not have two tails as there may come a day when I observe a mice with more than one tail." So I'm not sure what my original response tells you about why I believe the way I do, but my answer was honest and I even stated that I would welcome your feedback to the same question if you had a better answer.

As far as gravity is concerned, if it is not based on circular reasoning then based on your logic neither is God. "Is there a God? Yes. How do you know? Because the Bible says so. How do you know the Bible is correct? We don't exactly know, but there are a number of theories of what we think is happening."

I'm also not sure I understand your question/statement of faith. "Maybe it's hard to understand for some, but the strength of science is that absolutes are rare and it is continually changing, with faith absolutes seem to be in abundance." By pure definition, not mine but Merriam's, faith is based on an absolute. It is an absolute belief in something for which there is no proof; a complete trust.

In regards to your final question... "What archeological evidence is there that God exists and everything in the Bible is correct? Just wandering." Perhaps it was a poorly formed sentence, but the archaeological evidence was in reference to the Bible. And just to note, my statement was that "most archaelogical evidence has actually supported it as opposed to proving it false." I can only assume that your reference to "everything in the Bible being correct" is perhaps from a prior discussion you may have had with someone else. If you would like supporting evidence please research it yourself as it is fairly abundant.

I am not trying to force my opinions/beliefs on anyone. Someone brought up the topic of religion and Christian values, and just as if this were a discussion on football or politics, I occasionally offer an opinion if I believe it adds value to the discussion.
 
#99
#99
OrangeEmpire said:
I never said it did. The ideas have been around for centuries. Just because it is in the bible does not make it a bad practice.

:mf_surrender:
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I don't believe it does either. What mainly gets me is when the ideas are solely attributed to god.
 
#100
#100
JZVOL said:
I can't seem to find anywhere I brought up Muslims. I typically don't discuss things I don't find value in, which is why it's always strange to me you show up in every religious thread if you find no value in it.
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You brought up your pastor and his expertise on spiritual matters. And I am saying that does nothing to support your reliance on him concerning matters of God and the turth of Christianity. Rabbi's have spritual training and "expertise", yet they still deny Christ as the savior.

And I find value in the discussion. Notice I don't insert my thoughts into every religious thread, I just seem to make a splash in the few I do. I think I have been nothing but respectful thus far in this thread. This is interesting and I find most everybody on there intelligent and full of good points.
 
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