National day of Prayer Sept. 25, 2009?????

#101
#101
JZVOL said:
So how does this prove Christ is a made up story to control me?
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there are enough things in the bible whose reason for being included was to shape society in the way the writers/organizers wanted it done. I don't have it in front of me but can try to find some examples in there later
 
#102
#102
JZVOL said:
How would Christ's teachings control me in the way you mean?

What teaching, government or any function in the history of the Earth has not been abused by man for selfish purposes?
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Christ's teachings are one thing. Believing he is the messiah, son of God, savior, miracle worker is a whole other thing.
 
#103
#103
IBlvNTmWrk said:
RJD - based on your last response it seems that I may have some how offended you. If so, I apologize... that was certainly not my intent. I thought we were having a rather civil discussion. However, I will gladly try to address your questions/comments as best I can.

I gave the most honest answer I could to your original question, which is that I do not know how to answer it. Anything is possible though it may not be able to be proven, and the only thing impossible is proving the impossible. So how do you prove that something is false or does not exist? We have all seen suggested evidence that bigfoot, the loch ness monster, aliens (feel free to add your own example) all exist, and we can either choose to believe or disbelieve the evidence presented. However, can anyone prove that they DO NOT exist? There was a scientist (I do not recall his name) that studied 10,000 mice and his conclusion was (paraphrased)... "I can state that all the mice observed have only one tail, and since none of them have two tails therefore no mice have two tails; but I can not prove that mice can not have two tails as there may come a day when I observe a mice with more than one tail." So I'm not sure what my original response tells you about why I believe the way I do, but my answer was honest and I even stated that I would welcome your feedback to the same question if you had a better answer.

As far as gravity is concerned, if it is not based on circular reasoning then based on your logic neither is God. "Is there a God? Yes. How do you know? Because the Bible says so. How do you know the Bible is correct? We don't exactly know, but there are a number of theories of what we think is happening."

I'm also not sure I understand your question/statement of faith. "Maybe it's hard to understand for some, but the strength of science is that absolutes are rare and it is continually changing, with faith absolutes seem to be in abundance." By pure definition, not mine but Merriam's, faith is based on an absolute. It is an absolute belief in something for which there is no proof; a complete trust.

In regards to your final question... "What archeological evidence is there that God exists and everything in the Bible is correct? Just wandering." Perhaps it was a poorly formed sentence, but the archaeological evidence was in reference to the Bible. And just to note, my statement was that "most archaelogical evidence has actually supported it as opposed to proving it false." I can only assume that your reference to "everything in the Bible being correct" is perhaps from a prior discussion you may have had with someone else. If you would like supporting evidence please research it yourself as it is fairly abundant.

I am not trying to force my opinions/beliefs on anyone. Someone brought up the topic of religion and Christian values, and just as if this were a discussion on football or politics, I occasionally offer an opinion if I believe it adds value to the discussion.
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Your first mistake!

:eek:k:
 
#105
#105
rjd970 said:
You brought up your pastor and his expertise on spiritual matters. And I am saying that does nothing to support your reliance on him concerning matters of God and the turth of Christianity. Rabbi's have spritual training and "expertise", yet they still deny Christ as the savior.

And I find value in the discussion. Notice I don't insert my thoughts into every religious thread, I just seem to make a splash in the few I do. I think I have been nothing but respectful thus far in this thread. This is interesting and I find most everybody on there intelligent and full of good points.
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Good lord, your a horrible liar!

Don't ever play poker for money!

:hi:
 
#106
#106
utvolpj said:
there are enough things in the bible whose reason for being included was to shape society in the way the writers/organizers wanted it done. I don't have it in front of me but can try to find some examples in there later
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You lost me, are you referring to the Roman Occupation?
 
#110
#110
utvolpj said:
no, I've got it at home but not here. I knew I shouldn't have posted that without having stuff in front of me :p
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Interesting, you are talking about books that pose the argument that writers of the bible established the forumla for theocracy?
 
#111
#111
OrangeEmpire said:
I have no idea what you are talking about.

North American christians have bastardized the message of Christ.
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That's exactly what bin-Laden says.

How have north American Christians bastardized the message of Christ??

Perhaps you refer to the likes of Jeremiah Wright who deny Jesus is the Son of God?
 
#112
#112
rjd970 said:
Christ's teachings are one thing. Believing he is the messiah, son of God, savior, miracle worker is a whole other thing.
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Wow! Busy day at work and this thread has heated up. Maybe I can catch up more later, but don't forget the point I brought up earlier: He claimed to be the Christ, the Son of God, the only way to the Father, and many in His time witnessed His miracles. So what was He? Lunatic, liar or Who He said He was?
 
#114
#114
gsvol said:
That's exactly what bin-Laden says.

How have north American Christians bastardized the message of Christ??

Perhaps you refer to the likes of Jeremiah Wright who deny Jesus is the Son of God?
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Really?

Where has the church been since 1950?

It turned itself in to a social club that wants nothing to do with its community.

People wonder why there is such hatred for the church, do you blame them?
 
#116
#116
rjd970 said:
Christ's teachings are one thing. Believing he is the messiah, son of God, savior, miracle worker is a whole other thing.
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I have freedom in Christ as my savior, not control. I don't have to go through a priest to speak with Him. I don't have a checklist to follow.

Colossians 2:16-17 (New International Version)

16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

I can't help it if others have abused or manipulated others using the Bible. If that is what turns people off then I would think every single thing in life turns you off as well.
 
#118
#118
OrangeEmpire said:
Where has the church been since 1950?

It turned itself in to a social club that wants nothing to do with its community.
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To some degree it is reacting to said community turning on them, slamming doors in their face, ridiculing their beliefs, labeling their message as hate speach, placing restrictions on their symbolism, trying to force their children into an education system that restricts the teaching of their doctrines and encourages the teaching of opposing doctrines, etc., etc., etc. :ermm:

I see more and more signs that lead me to believe the days of open persecution of Christians in this country are drawing near. I pray to God I'm wrong...
 
#119
#119
J-P said:
To some degree it is reacting to said community turning on them, slamming doors in their face, ridiculing their beliefs, labeling their message as hate speach, placing restrictions on their symbolism, trying to force their children into an education system that restricts the teaching of their doctrines and encourages the teaching of opposing doctrines, etc., etc., etc. :ermm:

I see more and more signs that lead me to believe the days of open persecution of Christians in this country are drawing near. I pray to God I'm wrong...
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If every thing you said is true then that is a damning sign of the church for bowing down to pressure.

Our grandkids, childrens, children, children, children, childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,

will never see the "bad" that is coming.

:hi:
 
#120
#120
utvolpj said:
there are enough things in the bible whose reason for being included was to shape society in the way the writers/organizers wanted it done. I don't have it in front of me but can try to find some examples in there later
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Yes, for a believer. A way a believer's home should be run, or a marriage, how to raise your kids, again as a believer of Christ.

What purpose were the Apostles writing to other believers for? If you say to control them, what would the Apostles gain by controlling, at that time the few that believed in Christ?
 
#121
#121
JZVOL said:
Yes, for a believer. A way a believer's home should be run, or a marriage, how to raise your kids, again as a believer of Christ.

What purpose were the Apostles writing to other believers for? If you say to control them, what would the Apostles gain by controlling, at that time the few that believed in Christ?
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My first thought, that is why I asked about the Roman occupation.
 
#122
#122
OrangeEmpire said:
If every thing you said is true then that is a damning sign of the church for bowing down to pressure.

Our grandkids, childrens, children, children, children, childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,childrens, children, children, children,

will never see the "bad" that is coming.

:hi:
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that's thousands of years you have their OE. remember no one knows when Jesus is coming back. so I can't really believe what you wrote. I see your point, but i think you get mine as well.
 
#123
#123
OrangeEmpire said:
Really?

Where has the church been since 1950?

It turned itself in to a social club that wants nothing to do with its community.

People wonder why there is such hatred for the church, do you blame them?
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Its just a fulfillment of scripture, for example: II Timothy 4:3-4; (3)For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;(4) And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
 
#124
#124
OrangeEmpire said:
Your first mistake!

:eek:k:
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If this is my first mistake, I'll take that as a compliment... although I am sure I've made others. :)

OrangeEmpire said:
Really?

Where has the church been since 1950?

It turned itself in to a social club that wants nothing to do with its community.

People wonder why there is such hatred for the church, do you blame them?
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I agree with your comments... especially the social club reference... but wanting nothing to do with the community is going a bit far. I know of many churches that are doing many good things to help their communities. However, surveys and studies would support that churches are one of the biggest reasons why many people are against "religion" and do not go to churches.
 
#125
#125
J-P said:
Wow! Busy day at work and this thread has heated up. Maybe I can catch up more later, but don't forget the point I brought up earlier: He claimed to be the Christ, the Son of God, the only way to the Father, and many in His time witnessed His miracles. So what was He? Lunatic, liar or Who He said He was?
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My first question is how do you know exactly what he said?

And secondly, the teachings can stand on their own merit, no matter who first said them.
 
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