Neyland I (Formerly known as Gruden Thread)

[Weezer]

I once smoked a bowl, split a bottle of Crown with a friend, and took a few Xanax. I'm sure something happened but I'll be damned if I remember what.

 

[NorCalVol67]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQvg5S5eWiY[/youtube]

 

[NorCalVol67]

Keith Moon!

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBruYbPzxOw[/youtube]

 

[apevol]

I really just don't like the who.

 

[Behr]

I really just don't like the who.

Me either eighp.

 

[Paper_Towel]

That wasn’t pot. Something slightly more psychedelic, I’d say

The rollies might've been tampered with a little :crazy:

I know there were a few being passed around

 

[Charlie Kelly]

top 5 Laker, maybe.

If you think it’s even a question he’s a top 5 Laker, then you don’t know basketball.

 

[apevol]

If you think it’s even a question he’s a top 5 Laker, then you don’t know basketball.

Magic, Kareem, Shaq, Wilt were better

Relative to competition you have to consider Mikan. West is close and Baylor put up insane numbers unless you factor pace

 

[VolStrom]

I once smoked a bowl, split a bottle of Crown with a friend, and took a few Xanax. I'm sure something happened but I'll be damned if I remember what.

I thought you had a liver transplant?
Talking about drug and alcohol use doesn't make you a saint when the rest of us paid for your medical care.

 

[apevol]

I thought you had a liver transplant?
Talking about drug and alcohol use doesn't make you a saint when the rest of us paid for your medical care.

uh

 

[Orangeslice13]

uh

#whata****ass

 

[VolNExile]

For VNE:

 

[VolNExile]

Has nothing to do with adultery, honestly. They both got married for societal reasons. It’s the South; people who don’t get married by their 30’s are considered weird, broken, ill, or worse.

She helped him conquer his demons. He showed her what love truly was. Outside of that bulls**t fairytale she was fed as a little girl.

The best part of the story was that it actually happened. I love Johnny Cash. One of my favourite musicians of all time.

When did you become British?

(“favourite” several times)

OTOH, I spell gray “grey”, so there’s that.

gray is a dark, sort of velvety thing with some red in there

grey is silvery and cool and rainy and a bit dispassionate, with a bit of a breeze blowing

 

[VolNExile]

I thought you had a liver transplant?
Talking about drug and alcohol use doesn't make you a saint when the rest of us paid for your medical care.

I kinda think the “once” part pointed to pre-transplant days. :dunno:

 

[Weezer]

I thought you had a liver transplant?
Talking about drug and alcohol use doesn't make you a saint when the rest of us paid for your medical care.

Good news, you didn't pay for my medical care. And I never claimed sainthood. I was young once. None of what I said was present tense, and doctors were fairly certain my past alcohol use was in no way the cause of my cirrhosis. Not that it's your business, but hell, I'll share. I haven't had a drop of alcohol in over 3 years, probably closer to 4, not that I haven't wanted to given all the **** I've faced. But if you want to sit on your high horse and pass judgement, feel free. Other people's opinions don't define my life.

 

[Weezer]

Oh hey, just in case VolStrom is interested, I got out to a concert tonight for the first time since pre-transplant(so probably closed to a year). It was fun to feel human again. Would you like to judge me for that, as well?

 

[Charlie Kelly]

Magic, Kareem, Shaq, Wilt were better

Relative to competition you have to consider Mikan. West is close and Baylor put up insane numbers unless you factor pace

With Magic and Kareem, I can understand the argument.

Wilt played most of his insane statistical seasons with the Warriors and the Sixers so I don’t think you can really put him in a top 5 Laker converstaion. And he was also playing against guys built like small forwards instead of actual centers. Which is also why I have a hard time putting guys like West and Elgin over Kobe.

The NBA didn’t really hit it’s stride until the ‘80’s. Before that, the competition wasn’t all that great. You had a few superstars in the ‘50’s, ‘60’s and ‘70’s and then a huge drop-off in talent. Which is why guys like Wilt and Elgin were able to put up ridiculous numbers. It’s be like dropping today’s NBA superstars into the college game (with NBA rules of course; 48 minutes and 24 second shot clock) and marvelling at how they dominate. There’s a reason Boston was able to reel off so many titles in a row with Russell. There just wasn’t that much competition and Boston had arguably as much talent as the rest of the league combined at that point. Guys that played that far back are difficult to judge.

Shaq is tough for me. He won one of his titles with Miami. And got his start with Orlando. He was a Laker for 8 seasons but he needed Kobe more than Kobe needed him. He always needed a 1 or 2 guard to create space for him (Wade in Miami). He was consistently out of shape and couldn’t make anything outside of 8 feet. He almost never played a full season and never took the game as seriously as he should have. But he was absolutely dominant on the block. Probably top 10 all time. But he only played half of his career in L.A.

And then there’s Kobe. There’s a reason why former players and coaches will list him in their top 10 greatest players of all time while fans and media personalities won’t. He’s been consistently undervalued his entire career by most casual observers and it’s because people just flat out don’t like his personality. I get it. He was selfish and had a tendency to play with blinders on too often. And he was arrogant as hell. But when I was growing up playing ball, if you wanted to prove you were better than someone, you settled it one-on-one. And after you won, you didn’t let them forget it. So I’m biased towards guys who are/were phenomenal one-on-one players. I don’t like quoting stats but outscoring an opposing team by himself through 3 quarters in the modern era is flat out insanity (62-61). And the Mavericks made the finals that year. He could’ve gone over 81 in that game if they let him play the 4th. He had just scored 30 in the 3rd alone. He played excellent defense. Knew the game as well as most coaches. Underrated passer. Best footwork of all time. Possibly the best contested jumpshooter of all time. But what does it for me is Kobe is one of two guys in NBA history to have every shot on the floor. The other one is the greatest player of all time.

Sorry for the length; I like sports.

 

[Charlie Kelly]

When did you become British?

(“favourite” several times)

OTOH, I spell gray “grey”, so there’s that.

gray is a dark, sort of velvety thing with some red in there

grey is silvery and cool and rainy and a bit dispassionate, with a bit of a breeze blowing

Favourite, colour, rumour, tumour, flavour, centre, theatre.
Haha, I like to mix it up with words. Thanks for noticing.

I’ve spent a decent amount of time over there and I like their culture. And they did kind of invent the the language.

I guess I spell it “gray” more often than “grey”. But I definitely get what you’re saying. “Gray” reads so much harsher than “grey”. “Gray” is more like the robustness of a wide, stone staircase you’d find in the halls of an old castle on a dark, cloudy night. “Grey” is more like the silence of a smooth pebble you’d find at the bottom of a shallow stream in the middle of a forest on a rainy day.

 

[Tin Man]

It was fun to feel human again.

Fuggin' A, bubba; rock 'n' roll. :yes:

 

[Charlie Kelly]

And with that, I’m going to bed. Happy weekend everyone.

 

[apevol]

With Magic and Kareem, I can understand the argument.

Wilt played most of his insane statistical seasons with the Warriors and the Sixers so I don’t think you can really put him in a top 5 Laker converstaion. And he was also playing against guys built like small forwards instead of actual centers. Which is also why I have a hard time putting guys like West and Elgin over Kobe.

The NBA didn’t really hit it’s stride until the ‘80’s. Before that, the competition wasn’t all that great. You had a few superstars in the ‘50’s, ‘60’s and ‘70’s and then a huge drop-off in talent. Which is why guys like Wilt and Elgin were able to put up ridiculous numbers. It’s be like dropping today’s NBA superstars into the college game (with NBA rules of course; 48 minutes and 24 second shot clock) and marvelling at how they dominate. There’s a reason Boston was able to reel off so many titles in a row with Russell. There just wasn’t that much competition and Boston had arguably as much talent as the rest of the league combined at that point. Guys that played that far back are difficult to judge.

Shaq is tough for me. He won one of his titles with Miami. And got his start with Orlando. He was a Laker for 8 seasons but he needed Kobe more than Kobe needed him. He always needed a 1 or 2 guard to create space for him (Wade in Miami). He was consistently out of shape and couldn’t make anything outside of 8 feet. He almost never played a full season and never took the game as seriously as he should have. But he was absolutely dominant on the block. Probably top 10 all time. But he only played half of his career in L.A.

And then there’s Kobe. There’s a reason why former players and coaches will list him in their top 10 greatest players of all time while fans and media personalities won’t. He’s been consistently undervalued his entire career by most casual observers and it’s because people just flat out don’t like his personality. I get it. He was selfish and had a tendency to play with blinders on too often. And he was arrogant as hell. But when I was growing up playing ball, if you wanted to prove you were better than someone, you settled it one-on-one. And after you won, you didn’t let them forget it. So I’m biased towards guys who are/were phenomenal one-on-one players. I don’t like quoting stats but outscoring an opposing team by himself through 3 quarters in the modern era is flat out insanity (62-61). And the Mavericks made the finals that year. He could’ve gone over 81 in that game if they let him play the 4th. He had just scored 30 in the 3rd alone. He played excellent defense. Knew the game as well as most coaches. Underrated passer. Best footwork of all time. Possibly the best contested jumpshooter of all time. But what does it for me is Kobe is one of two guys in NBA history to have every shot on the floor. The other one is the greatest player of all time.

Sorry for the length; I like sports.

Wilt played against guys like Bill Russell, Kareem, Walt Bellamy, Willis Reed, Nate Thurmond. He wasn't playing against midgets. Scoring dropped off his last couple years, buy he was still putting up hall of fame offensive numbers as a Laker. He was also the anchor on defense, and put up crazy assists numbers for a center, even at the end. Kobe had a better career in a Laker uniform, but he wasn't as good a player.

I won't put Baylor or West above Kobe, but West is close.

Shaq was lazy and missed too much time because his feet were shot from spending the first half of every season losing his offseason fat, but in LA, everything ran through him. Kobe was nowhere near as good for the majority of their shared time in LA as he ended up being.

He had amazing footwork, but I wouldn't say it was better than someone like Mchale, MJ, or Hakeem

He was definitely an elite defender for much of his career, but rode his reputation later on.

Overstated athletecism, underappreciated skillset.

Very smart player, but also with the worst shot selection of all the historical greats.

Nowhere near as good at last second shots as people thought. Really bad percentages, and just dumb, dumb shots.

He had the talent and skills to be a better overall player than he was, but was too busy looking for shots. Missed a historic number of shots and still just barely couldn't quite stack up to the greatest volume scorers. Also turned the ball over a tad too much, because he refused to recognize situations


I will say he gets too much **** for his personality.

Shaq was a bigger ******* behind the scenes, and rode Kobe so hard when he was young that he basically turned him into a socipath.

Shaq was just way better at looking good in the media, and making Kobe look like the problem.

 

[Charlie Kelly]

Wilt played against guys like Bill Russell, Kareem, Walt Bellamy, Willis Reed, Nate Thurmond. He wasn't playing against midgets. Scoring dropped off his last couple years, buy he was still putting up hall of fame offensive numbers as a Laker. He was also the anchor on defense, and put up crazy assists numbers for a center, even at the end. Kobe had a better career in a Laker uniform, but he wasn't as good a player.

I won't put Baylor or West above Kobe, but West is close.

Shaq was lazy and missed too much time because his feet were shot from spending the first half of every season losing his offseason fat, but in LA, everything ran through him. Kobe was nowhere near as good for the majority of their shared time in LA as he ended up being.

He had amazing footwork, but I wouldn't say it was better than someone like Mchale, MJ, or Hakeem

He was definitely an elite defender for much of his career, but rode his reputation later on.

Overstated athletecism, underappreciated skillset.

Very smart player, but also with the worst shot selection of all the historical greats.

Nowhere near as good at last second shots as people thought. Really bad percentages, and just dumb, dumb shots.

He had the talent and skills to be a better overall player than he was, but was too busy looking for shots. Missed a historic number of shots and still just barely couldn't quite stack up to the greatest volume scorers. Also turned the ball over a tad too much, because he refused to recognize situations


I will say he gets too much **** for his personality.

Shaq was a bigger ******* behind the scenes, and rode Kobe so hard when he was young that he basically turned him into a socipath.

Shaq was just way better at looking good in the media, and making Kobe look like the problem.

You’re missing my point with Wilt. His best seasons weren’t as a Laker. And of course he played with superstars. It’s just the dropoff between those guys and your average center back then was huge. The night he dropped 100, the guys guarding him were 6’10”, 6’6”, and 6’9”. Wilt had 3 inches and 50 pounds on the biggest one. Average players in the NBA back in the ‘60’s would look pretty similar to your solid Division 1 player today. The superstars back then were making (inflation adjusted) less than 500k a year. Basketball was still catching on.

And they ran the triangle in L.A. with Shaq. So of course everything ran through him. It requires spacing so the ball can work inside-out. The one on the block is as much of a passer as the two perimeter players. Plus, I really hated how lazy Shaq was. It was almost criminal sometimes. No wonder he drove Kobe insane.

Eh, I think Kobe’s footwork was better than MJ’s. Maybe the big guys were better though. Kobe actually stole a lot of his post moves from Kareem.

But yes, his shot selection and just flat out refusal to make the best play is why he isn’t higher on my list. It’s probably his biggest flaw as a player. He always trusted himself to make a bad shot over passing to an open player. And it got him in trouble a lot.

As far as the clutch thing goes, I think it’s a stupid argument (for every player). You’re either afraid to take the last shot or you’re not. Sometimes you miss and sometimes you don’t. But yes, Kobe consistently took the last shot when others were open and he was being double and triple teamed. And his percentages suffered for it. But still, some of those were impressive. The Portland game in 2004 comes to mind. He had no business making those shots. It’s part of what makes Kobe so great. His insistence on running through a wall instead of doing the smart thing and going around it. But the times he actually went through that wall, he made you raise your eyebrows.

Lastly, I’ve noticed that athletes who are good with the media almost always turn out the be ***holes in person. And those who are kind of ****s to reporters are actually genuinely nice people if you meet them out on the street (Popovich comes to mind). Odd how that works.

 

[Weezer]

I don't care what you guys say, Michael Jordan was the greatest basketball player of all time!

 

[Weezer]

I think I ruffled Huff's feathers a bit in the Dink thread. I almost apologized before realizing I wasn't sorry. No need to be disingenuous.

 

[apevol]

You’re missing my point with Wilt. His best seasons weren’t as a Laker. And of course he played with superstars. It’s just the dropoff between those guys and your average center back then was huge. The night he dropped 100, the guys guarding him were 6’10”, 6’6”, and 6’9”. Wilt had 3 inches and 50 pounds on the biggest one. Average players in the NBA back in the ‘60’s would look pretty similar to your solid Division 1 player today. The superstars back then were making (inflation adjusted) less than 500k a year. Basketball was still catching on.

And they ran the triangle in L.A. with Shaq. So of course everything ran through him. It requires spacing so the ball can work inside-out. The one on the block is as much of a passer as the two perimeter players. Plus, I really hated how lazy Shaq was. It was almost criminal sometimes. No wonder he drove Kobe insane.

Eh, I think Kobe’s footwork was better than MJ’s. Maybe the big guys were better though. Kobe actually stole a lot of his post moves from Kareem.

But yes, his shot selection and just flat out refusal to make the best play is why he isn’t higher on my list. It’s probably his biggest flaw as a player. He always trusted himself to make a bad shot over passing to an open player. And it got him in trouble a lot.

As far as the clutch thing goes, I think it’s a stupid argument (for every player). You’re either afraid to take the last shot or you’re not. Sometimes you miss and sometimes you don’t. But yes, Kobe consistently took the last shot when others were open and he was being double and triple teamed. And his percentages suffered for it. But still, some of those were impressive. The Portland game in 2004 comes to mind. He had no business making those shots. It’s part of what makes Kobe so great. His insistence on running through a wall instead of doing the smart thing and going around it. But the times he actually went through that wall, he made you raise your eyebrows.

Lastly, I’ve noticed that athletes who are good with the media almost always turn out the be ***holes in person. And those who are kind of ****s to reporters are actually genuinely nice people if you meet them out on the street (Popovich comes to mind). Odd how that works.

6'9-6'10 isn't exactly uncommon height for centers of any era. Now we hardly even see actual centers.

Whenever you have guys like kareem, or Shaq, you always see an overreaction by the rest of the league trying to find a big 7 footer to account for dominant 7 footers. Usually results in a bunch of big tall stiffs making too much money to stand there and foul out.

The 50s and early 60s definitely saw a lot of undersized centers, but by the late 60s, the center position had become the most important position on the court. So Wilt played through two different eras, and was freakish in both. When he was old and broke down he was often playing kareem to a near draw.

But if you want to say his career as a Laker wasnt as good as Kobe, thats totally fair. Kareem's best years were in Milwaukee, similarly.

Lakers are funny in that they have a ton of hall of famers that spent a lot of their careers on other teams, whereas the Celtics have had a lot of guys that spent their entire careers in Boston.

As far as Kobe's footwork, he was taught a lot by Hakeem. Definitely outstanding, but its interesting that Hakeem was also an innefecient scorer. Shouldve went to Mchale.

He missed a ton of game winners, because hes just a player who missed a ton of shots in general. Was a good enough defender/rebounder/passer that he's still one of the best 2 guards all time, But he was so bad at taking care of the ball and maximizing his touches to call him a top 5 player.

The way I look at it is..
I can't say Michael Jordan was clearly better, or would rather build a team around him than a handful of players, but Jordan was clearly better and more compatible than Kobe ever was.

I'd rather hang out with Kobe tho