No Longer Women's BB teams built on Culture

#51
#51
Volfan2012 said:
My final thought on all of this posting is your belief has to be she can't coach or recruit. She can't do either even though in the league we play she has the second most wins over five seasons. For me it is she is a good coach without the players to beat all the teams she continues to play that are out recruiting her. I accept she can't recruit as her big fault. I just do not accept she wouldn't be able to coach to a high degree of success a team made up of or equivalent to South Carolina's team of All Americans. The fact she can't meet the recruiting standard should be the reason for a change not what she has done with what she was able to recruit.

Kim's in conference two season record is up for some scrutiny and her loss to Tennessee in the tourney. She is getting better players and won the title when SC choked away a game they should've won easily. Utah makes one free throw they don't get that chance.
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Hard to be up for scrutiny when you cut down the net. I’m sure we both would welcome that kind of scrutiny.
 
#52
#52
Volfan2012 said:
A lot of people are greedy and all this from the courts and congress gave all these amateur athletes rights probably best left alone.
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Our rights come to us from our maker, not the courts or any other part of government. Our rights are guaranteed us by the Constitution, and the courts are there to enforce that guarantee. The ownership of one's name, image, and likeness belongs to her/him exclusively no matter what anyone thinks about it. Neither the NCAA or the government or the courts take away or give rights, and they certainly can't fail to protect fundamental civil and human rights.
 
#54
#54
madtownvol said:
You are forgetting though, that ALL the games that Kellie has won as LVHC, by some mystical negavol logic, simply don't count. Wins are losses and losses are the destruction of everything that Pat built.

Kellie could technically win the NC this year and it would not count because Kim Mulkey did it in year 1 @ LSU (which is now the minimum standard of coaching competency).
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Oh it would be welcomed. Believe last year Darth and myself gave Kellie credit in the big win against LSU. Funny, those seem to get left out in the agenda game. Do I do it right?
 
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#55
#55
The major colleges all need to stop offering NIL deals to high-school prospects. It's unseemly and unnecessary. They only reason all or most of the majors do it now with select players is that they wouldn't be competitive if they stopped. Once a few dumb schools started offering money, everybody had to join in or lose their chance to sign the top players. If they all agreed to stop, it would be a good thing, as it's just turning kids into crass, money-grubbing mercenaries. They're already getting a free college education, let's remember, which is worth a LOT of money. But we've got a crowd who only think in terms of cash in the pocket, and who don't fully appreciate the value of an education, and that's unfortunate. NIL should only be for student-athletes already enrolled in and playing for a school. Players now have no loyalty to their school--it's all, whatcha gonna do for me? Sad to see.
 
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#56
#56
turbovol, I understand your recommendation even though it won't happen.

I do question your frequent opposition to our current coach as you would have preferred someone else. I wonder who in the current environment you believe would be a better coach/recruiter/whatever: unless he/she would come with a guaranteed million salary and agreement for NIL of $2M.
 
#58
#58
Volfan2012 said:
I just do not accept she wouldn't be able to coach to a high degree of success a team made up of or equivalent to South Carolina's team of All Americans. The fact she can't meet the recruiting standard should be the reason for a change not what she has done with what she was able to recruit.
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Agree. All competent coaches including KJH would suddenly be much smarter and have much more successful with a truly elite roster. It's the lack of elite recruiting that would eventually take her down. She, and almost every other coach, just can't get over the hump of doing more with less until they can get more.

creekdipper said:
Miles, Saunders, Suarez, and Pissott all left for schools who had a starting position for thek.
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And all saw writing on the wall of several players brought in who were likely to take their minutes or keep them from getting any. Logical reason to move on. The LVs have had far less of this the last few years than most programs.
 
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#60
#60
madtownvol said:
Wow, I am very sorry. You have acknowledged 1 of Kellie's 100+ wins. Your magnanimity simply knows no bounds.
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Does everyone acknowledge the one’s you’re supposed to win as a great achievement? Apology accepted, now we know where the standards are moving forward. I’ve said for a few weeks win #13 against a ranked opponent is going to be great. We just don’t know if it’ll be this year or next (pending job status)

Had I been around more for the win against USC, I feel positive I would have stated it as a tremendous win for her early career here.
 
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#62
#62
creekdipper said:
Funny how Walz fanboys criticize KJH when players leave for increased minutes yet never mention Walz's pet, marquee player jumping ship as being a failure of culture.

It's almost as though there's some kind of major posting agenda.
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Good thing I wasn’t around to endorse Walz or have. My posting is we will just say observation. I’m not familiar with the culture of Louisville, Rick and Papa John kind of jaded me all things Ville.
 
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#63
#63
glv98 said:
Meant to add earlier, the irony of Rick Freakin Pitino bemoaning culture is like, wtf? Google him children, it ain't pretty. His best days were the many times he got caught cheating everywhere he coached, including Kentucky. Federal bribery charges involving recruits. The big one was his staff providing prostitutes to players in their dorm! So yeah, let's discuss culture Rick.
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You left out the Italian restaurant incident involving a booth.
 
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#65
#65
Volfan2012 said:
Whatever he has won 61 percent of his SEC games and she has won 72 percent so he must have it harder. So that would mean every season he has faced better teams in his league than she has in hers. That seems not to make sense. He is good out of conference 66 percent to her 69 percent.
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Come on, man. I'm off of the KJH train due to her performance, there's frankly nothing she can do this season to persuade me that she deserves to be in Orange & White, and said performance relative to a completely different sport is asinine. Women's college basketball is not a revenue sport and, even with the growing parity, there's simply no excuse for the Lady Vols to be well over a decade removed from their last Final Four berth.

Tennessee purportedly cares about WCBB and has a truly distinct leg up over all but one team in the entire sport, which is radically different than Tennessee's footing in men's college basketball, yet has absolutely nothing to show for it since the day Pat stepped down and somehow even less now with KJH than with Holly at the helm.

mudcat1973 said:
Dawn and Genoo didn't win when they first got South Carolina and UNConn
No one has won Championshis in their first five years.
Except Kim who needed more than five at Baylor Bears. I Guessing.


It even took Pat Summit was it 10 to 12 years can not recall without looking.
But I was in my time frame above.
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Geno, Kim and Pat built their programs (as did, to an extent, Dawn). Hell, Pat and Geno built the sport.

KJH inherited a program that, while doing fairly well, was once at the sport's zenith. No excuse to not be making major waves in year five.
 
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#66
#66
madtownvol said:
Coaches whining about NIL and transfer portals is getting very tiresome.The current system is probably a little too wild, wild west--particularly for football and men's college ball.

But, yes coaching was easier when scholarship athletes were indentured servants. Creating a culture where players want to stay and not always seek to maximize their market value is about the only mechanism coaches have to build a program with a relative degree of stability.
Rickea could have gone anywhere she wanted , and gotten more $ but she chose to remain a LVFL
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No doubt it's pretty rich for coaches who'll dash for the dough at the drop of a hat to bemoan the lack of loyalty. As the money they chased got more crazy, the more hypocritical they looked denying the poor kids their shirtzee sales.

But probably a little too wild west? And how sweet that you think program stability can be built upon the noble few who stay for love over gold, but please. Also, indentured servitude seems a little extreme. Again, before the crazy money poured in, it was thought the value of the free college education plus the copious gear, treatment like royalty, etc was fair compensation for their services.

We appear to be going down the path in court of no control or restrictions on marketing. I don't see how any transfer portal rules stand in the face of that. Unrestricted pay for play is unleashed every year, Old man me is going to miss college sports as we knew them. I'm sure they'll adjust and survive and get more huge tv contracts but they'll feel very different.

Are there any other sports (yet) where rosters turn over every year? It will be interesting to see what kind of attachments are possible, both players to teams and fans to players. Some stability can be achieved by pay for stay. Agents and accountants will make a killing.
Instead of Vols for Life they'll be Vols for Life of the Contract.
 
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#67
#67
glv98 said:
No doubt it's pretty rich for coaches who'll dash for the dough at the drop of a hat to bemoan the lack of loyalty. As the money they chased got more crazy, the more hypocritical they looked denying the poor kids their shirtzee sales.

But probably a little too wild west? And how sweet that you think program stability can be built upon the noble few who stay for love over gold, but please. Also, indentured servitude seems a little extreme. Again, before the crazy money poured in, it was thought the value of the free college education plus the copious gear, treatment like royalty, etc was fair compensation for their services.

We appear to be going down the path in court of no control or restrictions on marketing. I don't see how any transfer portal rules stand in the face of that. Unrestricted pay for play is unleashed every year, Old man me is going to miss college sports as we knew them. I'm sure they'll adjust and survive and get more huge tv contracts but they'll feel very different.

Are there any other sports (yet) where rosters turn over every year? It will be interesting to see what kind of attachments are possible, both players to teams and fans to players. Some stability can be achieved by pay for stay. Agents and accountants will make a killing.
Instead of Vols for Life they'll be Vols for Life of the Contract.
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After they’ve unionized and have a CBA in hand things will settle down.
 
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#68
#68
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#69
#69
glv98 said:
Meant to add earlier, the irony of Rick Freakin Pitino bemoaning culture is like, wtf? Google him children, it ain't pretty. His best days were the many times he got caught cheating everywhere he coached, including Kentucky. Federal bribery charges involving recruits. The big one was his staff providing prostitutes to players in their dorm! So yeah, let's discuss culture Rick.
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Typical woke hypocrite. Throws stones from a glass house. You sir are 100% correct.
 
#70
#70
#72
#72
Volfan2012 said:
Well some posters will try to use it forever. Anything they can use except actual facts is what will be posted. Anytime you are so strongly against a coach you will try anything to make them look bad. The only point they have with Coach Kellie is recruiting it has been terrible. Could've even been better with the portal couldn't get that player or two that would've made the current players and team far better.
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Totally disagree, do you watch games? I’ve yet to see them truly play hard.
 
#73
#73
chuckiepoo said:
After they’ve unionized and have a CBA in hand things will settle down.
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lol, I do find that a curious destination for this sport in particular. Not because I disagree about a CBA settling things down, but rather because almost no women's basketball program makes any profit at all. Most are heavily subsidized by football and men's basketball, both of which are about to take their proverbial ball of money and go home. I don't think people quite grasp yet just what it will mean when they aren't there to foot the bill anymore. To put it mildly, operating TBA for five hours on a game day is not a thrifty proposition.

In checking some numbers for another long-winded argument elsewhere, I found that many SEC programs for women's basketball were losing money to the tune of millions annually. One was in the hole for almost 10 million in 2022, primarily because the department distributed the cost of facilities improvements across all sports (and then did some kind of math to even it out at the end). I forget which school, but they'd just done an arena renovation, so.

Nonetheless, I admit a certain fascination in watching what will become of it. College sports has been an endeavor of creating opportunities for students for so long, and was grown under that concept. Once its fiscal engines are ripped out, what will become of the rest? Perhaps the schools will find new sports to emphasize, and then they'll get big too, and ESPN will offer them fat mouse money, and we can do this whole song and dance all over again. Hmm. Strange days.
 
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#74
#74
Hbg said:
Totally disagree, do you watch games? I’ve yet to see them truly play hard.
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I have evidently you haven't because they have played 21 games and yes they have played really hard in some of the games. Not all but to say you have never seen it tells me you haven't watched many.
 
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#75
#75
turbovol said:
The major colleges all need to stop offering NIL deals to high-school prospects. It's unseemly and unnecessary. They only reason all or most of the majors do it now with select players is that they wouldn't be competitive if they stopped. Once a few dumb schools started offering money, everybody had to join in or lose their chance to sign the top players. If they all agreed to stop, it would be a good thing, as it's just turning kids into crass, money-grubbing mercenaries. They're already getting a free college education, let's remember, which is worth a LOT of money. But we've got a crowd who only think in terms of cash in the pocket, and who don't fully appreciate the value of an education, and that's unfortunate. NIL should only be for student-athletes already enrolled in and playing for a school. Players now have no loyalty to their school--it's all, whatcha gonna do for me? Sad to see.
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Sadly, like it or not NIL is here to stay. If you can’t pony up nice NIL packages you are going to be at the end of the recruiting line. Since NIL one of the biggest recruiting questions from athletes is what type of NIL packages can I get. It doesn’t matter a great deal what their family financial background is. The recruiter isn’t suppose to discuss such matters but many of these high school recruits already know which schools can put them in position to receive the max NIL deals. If the Lady Vols can’t join the party, at a particular level, recruiting is always going to be an issue.
 
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