No one is Underpaid

[hog88]

Except hookers work for that money.

The only truly honest profession

 

[AthensVol2007]

That logic is flawed. Let’s make it super elemental:

I run a ditch digging business in a small village. So does my neighbor, Tom. Tom and I don’t do the digging ourselves; we own the only two shovels in town (means of production). We both get paid $5 to for a ditch. Tom pays 50 cents a ditch to anyone he hires. I pay 75 cents. I offer workers a better opportunity, sure. Does the fact that Tom is even cheaper than I am make me justified in paying someone such a tiny fraction of the value of their labor? No.

Entitlement has nothing to do with it. Workers produce a certain amount of value in any given business. Paying them what they are “worth” is not as subjective as you are trying to argue.

It seems like we fundamentally disagree on this, and further debate will not be productive. Also, you kinda insulted my Mom, and that pisses me off. Bye.

It sounds as if you’re failing to factor in the initial investment cost of the shovel, the depreciation and upkeep on the shovel, the opportunity cost of the capital if not spent on a shovel, the tangible cost of an employee (salary), the benefits and cost of carrying the employee, etc.

 

[Vol in Buckeye Land]

It sounds as if you’re failing to factor in the initial investment cost of the shovel, the depreciation and upkeep on the shovel, the opportunity cost of the capital if not spent on a shovel, the tangible cost of an employee (salary), the benefits and cost of carrying the employee, etc.

The value created by labor, in my estimation, is revenue minus the cost of maintaining capital, broadly speaking. Obviously that would be extremely hard to quantify. It’s why economics is such a complicated field.

 

[AthensVol2007]

The value created by labor, in my estimation, is revenue minus the cost of maintaining capital, broadly speaking. Obviously that would be extremely hard to quantify. It’s why economics is such a complicated field.

The value above the cost of your labor or capital is the profit. I may be misunderstanding what you’re saying but obviously labor creates a value above and beyond their cost or worth but that doesn’t mean the labor is entitled to it. The labor didn’t take the initial risk nor does it bear the ongoing risk. That’s the reward for the risk. While we’re paying the labor the value they create why don’t we sell the goods at nothing more than the direct cost of their production? The market dictates and drives the bottom line all the way through; if workers perceive they’re underpaid they’ll move on and when new labor can’t be attracted the Man will raise his wages to attract new labor and willingly, however begrudgingly, reduce his bottom line (unless by chance happier workers actually lead to increased/more efficient production and a better bottom line). If consumers deem prices to high, they won’t buy, forcing the Man to adjust his prices or risk going out of business, again reducing his profit on lower margins or actually raising it on greater volume sold.

 

[MemphisVol77]

Mechanics and dr are liable for thier mistakes

Every semi truck & trailer being towed has to have a DOT inspection sticker & paperwork that matches the VIN. A diesel mechanic has to have certification to perform inspections. The DOT inspection has a tracking number. If an inspector passes a remiss vehicle's DOT inspection and that vehicle is involved in a fatal accident, they're up for a slew of manslaughter charges depending on the severity of what they fraudulently certified on the inspection.

Most fast food places either simply carry no product or ingredient with peanut /peanut oil, or they have abundant signage (five guys) letting the customer know their food may be cross contaminated.

Some industries have to trust their employees, some industries cannot trust the employees. I'm ok with automation. I try and keep, a window closing opens a door, perspective in saying that.
I'm not advocating for anyone to fail or have less. I'm saying we should implore people to achieve more before we argue that menial unskilled labor should provide for all.

 

[newarkvol]

This is interesting. What fraction of your labor do you believe you should earn?

You brought your mother into this, not me. You thought her pension plan going under would be some kind of trump card. If you don’t want your feelings hurt, don’t attempt to use loved ones to win ideological arguments.

Edit: The reason it’s interesting is you are basically quoting Marx. When Marx was alive times were much harder. Neomarxists now openly admit capitalism has succeeded. That’s why cultural Marxism exists. I can quote them directly on these things if you’d like, but the basic idea is the success of capitalism prevented their Marxist revolution. So in order to gain approval for a revolution they would change their criteria from rich vs poor and a revolution of the poor, to a revolution of those not included in mainstream culture

This post is so full of ****
... on multiple levels,
it almost takes on a certain moronic grandiosity.
Thank you VNP --I've missed ya

 

[Rickyvol77]

Didn't read the whole thread so it may have been covered but.....................
Sure there are people that are underpaid. They are just willing (for whatever reason) to work at a job where they are underpaid.
Saying nobody is underpaid makes as little sense as saying nobody is overpaid.

Ten LEOs have worked for the same municipality for the same number of years and are on the same pay scale. One does as little as possible and takes the occasional bribe, 8 do the job as expected, and one consistently goes above and beyond expectations.
I would say one is overpaid, 8 are adequately paid, and one is underpaid.

The same could be said for teachers

 

[Rickyvol77]

So apparently we have some posters whose panties are in a bunch if you don't define ALL employees as skilled. Ok. It's the equivalent of claiming all children are smart. It's not true, but if it makes you feel better, have at it.

I can’t believe he would argue a trash man or ditch digger or sever is important and skilled as a doctor or such

 

[luthervol]

The same could be said for teachers

100% agree.
Some people are overpaid, some people are underpaid.

 

[Vol8188]

This post is so full of ****
... on multiple levels,
it almost takes on a certain moronic grandiosity.
Thank you VNP --I've missed ya

What about anything I said was moronic?

 

[Vol in Buckeye Land]

The value above the cost of your labor or capital is the profit. I may be misunderstanding what you’re saying but obviously labor creates a value above and beyond their cost or worth but that doesn’t mean the labor is entitled to it. The labor didn’t take the initial risk nor does it bear the ongoing risk. That’s the reward for the risk. While we’re paying the labor the value they create why don’t we sell the goods at nothing more than the direct cost of their production? The market dictates and drives the bottom line all the way through; if workers perceive they’re underpaid they’ll move on and when new labor can’t be attracted the Man will raise his wages to attract new labor and willingly, however begrudgingly, reduce his bottom line (unless by chance happier workers actually lead to increased/more efficient production and a better bottom line). If consumers deem prices to high, they won’t buy, forcing the Man to adjust his prices or risk going out of business, again reducing his profit on lower margins or actually raising it on greater volume sold.

That sounds nice in theory, but economies of scale mean that consumers and/or workers inevitably get squeezed. Net income - cost of production is profit in the final analysis, yes. But conceptually, what produces the economic value of whatever you’re selling? If it’s not capital, it’s labor. I don’t know if it can be quantified in a way that isn’t massively subjective, but the average worker has to be producing value above and beyond their wages, otherwise profit would not exist.

There is nothing like natural law or an obviously fair principle when it comes to profit. Ie, how much of the business’ income should be captured as profit and how much should be paid out to labor, spent on upgrading and maintaining capital (after all there are different levels of maintenance), etc. The free market is a good mechanism, but it is not a self-validating moral authority of some kind.

You are right that capital (now speaking of ownership, not material assets) bears the risk. But if we’re talking about a publicly traded company, as opposed to a small business, labor does all the work (that almost sounds redundant). So to privilege one over the other doesn’t seem right. The shift toward partial employee ownership in some manufacturing companies is encouraging for this reason.