No stars or angels on a Christmas tree, that is religious symbolism.

#27
#27
gsvol said:
Your first statement is correct, the second is not.

The founding fathers were unaimous in their belief that they were building our government based upon Christian principles.
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you assume that those principles are solely Christian. They were around long before and will be around long after.

rpvol said:
maybe in todays nation, but the notion that this country was built as a christian nation is fact.
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but yet the founding fathers left any mention of that out of our Constitution. I guess they weren't so smart after all
 
#28
#28
what were they gonna write in there? everyone must be christian? they were smart enough not to do that. there are many things that point to christianity in this countrys history. its simple really. you don't like it, don't look at it. its a few angels on a christmas tree and a cross on the side of the road.

and for the record, i am not an extremely religious person, but i hate to see these people like the one that the article is written about make such a mess over trivial things that may being a smile to someone's face or comfort to a family who has tragically lost a loved one.
 
#29
#29
rpvol said:
what were they gonna write in there? everyone must be christian? they were smart enough not to do that. there are many things that point to christianity in this countrys history. its simple really. you don't like it, don't look at it. its a few angels on a christmas tree and a cross on the side of the road.

and for the record, i am not an extremely religious person, but i hate to see these people like the one that the article is written about make such a mess over trivial things that may being a smile to someone's face or comfort to a family who has tragically lost a loved one.
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no one is denying Christianity is part of US history but the country's government is not founded on it. Not only were they smart enough to do that but they actually expressed their wishes about it in the document
 
#31
#31
rpvol said:
maybe in todays nation, but the notion that this country was built as a christian nation is fact.
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A plain reading of the language of the First Amendment does NOT support the notion that goverment cannot endorse one particular religion over others, only that it cannot "make any law" establishing a religion. However, evidence does exists that supports the notion that both Thomas Jefferson and James Madison - the guy who drafted the Bill of Rights - intended the First Amendment to create a wall between church and state.
 
#34
#34
paul1454 said:
A plain reading of the language of the First Amendment does NOT support the notion that goverment cannot endorse one particular religion over others, only that it cannot "make any law" establishing a religion. However, evidence does exists that supports the notion that both Thomas Jefferson and James Madison - the guy who drafted the Bill of Rights - intended the First Amendment to create a wall between church and state.
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If they intended to create a wall, then why has everyone assumed this? Afterall it was only in a letter to the Dansbury Baptist Assoc. which is not the constitution. Everyone uses this one letter to make it part of the constitution but ignore the other letters about their faith. Why one over the other?
 
#35
#35
Oldvol75 said:
If they intended to create a wall, then why has everyone assumed this? Afterall it was only in a letter to the Dansbury Baptist Assoc. which is not the constitution. Everyone uses this one letter to make it part of the constitution but ignore the other letters about their faith. Why one over the other?
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I didn't say there was overwhelming
evidence that Madison drafted
the first amendment to separate church and state...only that some evidence exists to support the notion. Also, to imply that people don't share the separationist view is incorrect. A significant number of supreme court justices share that view. Now, I don't agree. My only point was to show one of the reasons for the debate.
 
#36
#36
paul1454 said:
I didn't say there was overwhelming
evidence that Madison drafted
the first amendment to separate church and state...only that some evidence exists to support the notion. Also, to imply that people don't share the separationist view is incorrect. A significant number of supreme court justices share that view. Now, I don't agree. My only point was to show one of the reasons for the debate.
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:eek:k:
 
#37
#37
paul1454 said:
A plain reading of the language of the First Amendment does NOT support the notion that goverment cannot endorse one particular religion over others, only that it cannot "make any law" establishing a religion. However, evidence does exists that supports the notion that both Thomas Jefferson and James Madison - the guy who drafted the Bill of Rights - intended the First Amendment to create a wall between church and state.
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What they were trying to do imo is prevent corruption between church and state and to prevent undue influence either by state on church or church on state.

I doubt their intention was to silence religious expression in public or even on publicly owned property.

Particularly since WWII we have seen a great deal of activism by certain groups with ulterior motives to try to erase and suppress our Christian heritage, veritibly most all of our tradition aand heritage in order to make room for their 'new order.'

Would they have us tear down most of the monuments in Washington, to tear down all the gave markers in Arlington National Cemetary??

Just how far would they go?? As far as we allow them imo. It's time for people to make a stand, it's time to speak out against those who would destroy this nation.

OK, I yield the soap box. :angel:






utvolpj said:
yeah well I studied the Tao of Pooh so :neener2:
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As an uncarved block, you're way chippy! :tease2:
 
#38
#38
Atheist Display At State Capitol

Their sign reads:

"At the time of the winter solstice, let reason prevail. There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. There is only our natural world. Religion is just myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."

The Madison, Wis.-based Freedom from Religion Foundation has placed the sign in several state Capitol buildings across the country.
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#39
#39
gsvol said:
Atheist Display At State Capitol

Their sign reads:

"At the time of the winter solstice, let reason prevail. There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. There is only our natural world. Religion is just myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."
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Anybody else read this whole link?



.....Haupt said in addition to the sign, the Nativity Scene and the Christmas tree, there is also a Soldiers' Angels wreath, and a tabletop display from the American Civil Liberties Union that says the group "defends freedom of religion." A Hanukkah menorah had also been on display until the Jewish Festival of Lights ended on Saturday.
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Let me guess, its OK for Christmas trees and nativity scenes, but nothing else, or an atheist sign?
 
#40
#40
First of all, the ACLU is a joke. They defend what fits their purpose (whatever that is, its not all religion conclusive). If a christian takes a bible to school, or has prayer there, (without direction of the school administators) the ACLU goes after the school board.(currently happening in the county I live in)

In some public schools, the pillars of Islam are being taught.

Defending religous freedoms?
I guess that depends on what religion.

As far as Christmas goes, I guess thats why they are currently trying to phase out the name.
 
#42
#42
The majority of modern christmas traditions-tree, wreath, lights, stars, missletoe,ect are derived/copied from PAGAN rituals. Do some research. Its all BS. Now, I'm in no way saying that people that partake in these cutoms are worshiping pagan idols/gods. However, one need be very careful of what his customs really mean. JUS Sayin- V M F
BTW -In case you were wondering, I don't walk around tellin people "merry gift giving" =)
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#44
#44
rjd970 said:
Let me guess, its OK for Christmas trees and nativity scenes, but nothing else, or an atheist sign?
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They have their own holiday, Earth day aka Lenin's birthday, no one wants to put up a Nativity Scene in front of their endangered polar bear exibit!!!

How in the hell can you associate the belief there is no god with Christmas.

Their sole purpose is to cause trouble.
 
#45
#45
BeecherVol said:
First of all, the ACLU is a joke. They defend what fits their purpose (whatever that is, its not all religion conclusive). If a christian takes a bible to school, or has prayer there, (without direction of the school administators) the ACLU goes after the school board.(currently happening in the county I live in)

In some public schools, the pillars of Islam are being taught.

Defending religous freedoms?
I guess that depends on what religion.

As far as Christmas goes, I guess thats why they are currently trying to phase out the name.
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Forging the righteous battle to eradicate Christianity, the ACLU simultaneously fights to install ceremonial footbaths for Muslims in municipal restrooms and university campuses.

Christmas in America is in the process of being prohibited by a public school system that has zero compunction about striking Jell-O from the lunch menu to placate pork sensitivity in Islamic students.
.................................................

Atheists and non-Christians have targeted for eradication any Christmas songs performed in public school holiday plays.
.........................................

A White House that celebrates Ramadan sanctioned putting the kibosh on the holiday spirit by planning an oxymoronic “non-religious Christmas.”
..............................................

Eliminating depictions of biblical stories and characters does not go far enough for iconoclasts wishing to totally exterminate Christianity from American culture.
.................................................

Wait until these academic geniuses realize that “holiday” is a compound word stemming from “holy” and “day.”
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With missionary zeal, secularists in the public school system, as well as the highest offices of government, exclude the spiritual and exalt the humanistic.
.....................................

Secular religion has set up church in a godless government stretching from Cherry Creek, Colorado to the White House and disguising its nefarious ambitions as political correctness.
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There is more, I havn't read the second page.
 
#46
#46
gsvol said:
Your first statement is correct, the second is not.

The founding fathers were unaimous in their belief that they were building our government based upon Christian principles.
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The founding fathers were as much, if not more, influenced by the works of Locke, Burke, and Voltaire. I am not saying that their Christian beliefs did not influence them, but it certainly was not their only influence.
 
#47
#47
There are many negatives for being an Atheist in the United States. The very worst is the fact than my fellow Atheists are so thin skinned, *****y, and hostile. I in no way want religious displays removed simply because I do not believe in them. Jesus really is the reason for the season, this cannot be ignored. I just do not understand how a star on a Christmas tree is offensive at all.

I do consider this to be a Christian nation, not because of the founding fathers, but because this is the most devoutly religious Christian nation on earth. Most Americans are Christians, and a majority of them put their faith as the central tenet in their life. We are a Christian nation, this in no way offends me, or worries me. It is what it is.
 
#49
#49
jackaro said:
The founding fathers were as much, if not more, influenced by the works of Locke, Burke, and Voltaire. I am not saying that their Christian beliefs did not influence them, but it certainly was not their only influence.
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That's true but the works of Locke, Burke and Voltaire were also influenced by the works of Jesus and other writers and philosophers who accepted Jesus as their savior.

The bottom line is that they were founding the future of this nation on Christian principles, those who signed the Declaration of Independence were unanimous in such thinking.

You enjoy your freedoms and liberty because of many, many Christians who worked, sacrificed, fought and sometimes died so that you might have those freedoms and liberty.

America's forebears first established a written covenant with God as early as November 11, 1620, when they penned The Mayflower Compact. It states in part:

"In the name of God, Amen. ... Having undertaken, for the Glory of God, and Advancement of the Christian Faith, and Honour of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia; do by these presents, solemnly and mutually in the Presence of God and one of another, covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil Body Politick, for our better Ordering and Preservation, and Furtherance of the Ends aforesaid; And by Virtue hereof to enact, constitute, and frame such just and equal Laws, Ordinances, Acts, Constitutions and Offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the General good of the Colony; unto which we promise all due submission and obedience."

Have you read "The Covenant" by Mitchner??

It is really sad for those that were very much like the Mayflower group and who settled in South Africa at about the same time and today find themselves on the brink of extinction. (of course they had a lot of 'help' from ACLU types.)



jackaro said:
There are many negatives for being an Atheist in the United States. The very worst is the fact than my fellow Atheists are so thin skinned, *****y, and hostile. I in no way want religious displays removed simply because I do not believe in them. Jesus really is the reason for the season, this cannot be ignored. I just do not understand how a star on a Christmas tree is offensive at all.

I do consider this to be a Christian nation, not because of the founding fathers, but because this is the most devoutly religious Christian nation on earth. Most Americans are Christians, and a majority of them put their faith as the central tenet in their life. We are a Christian nation, this in no way offends me, or worries me. It is what it is.
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I'd say you are probably more of an agnostic, you seem a bit too open minded about Christian beliefs to be called an atheist.

I usually don't try to label people and truculently resist being labeled myself by others.

There are those who have ulterior motives for attacking Christianity and/or Christian expression.
 
#50
#50
RockyTopVol said:
Merry Christmas Irv Sutley!! May Jack Frost be nipping at your liberal toes.

California County Reverses Ban on Angel, Star Ornaments After Public Outcry - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News - FOXNews.com
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Bless Chris Thomas' little old pea picking heart, it's about time someone, anyone in government at any level took a stand and quit acquiesing to satisfy the ever increasing demands by a certain few to pacify their idiotic ideas of political correctness.
 
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