Not espn's fault that manning lost the heisman?

#251
#251
IBlvNTmWrk said:
Okay. I guess I don't understand why you give weight to a running game in terms of improving a QB's stats, but you seem to discredit the talent of the receivers the QB is throwing to and the defense he is playing against.
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Where did I discredit the talent and/or the defenses?

I stated that his receivers were better in 1997 and faced the same level of competition in opposing defenses.
 
#252
#252
therealUT said:
He also had the best combination of an arm, scrambling ability, and good decision making ability of any QB I've watched. Montana was an immobile QB with a weak arm that was fortunate enough to throw the ball to Jerry Rice and John Taylor, hand the ball to Rathman and Craig, and have Bill Walsh calling all the plays.

Shannon Sharpe is the only offensive player that played with Elway who, IMO, has the slightest chance of being elected to Canton.
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fyp. Otherwise agreed on all points concerning Elway.
 
#253
#253
Late to the party, and I wasn't a UT fan at the time, and I think Woodson deserved the trophy. But I also remember back then, ESPN being really the only source of news and opinion that mattered in CFB at the time, and I remember most of the talking heads on that network putting their eggs in Woodson's basket.

So, I think Woodson deserved it but I also think ESPN did contribute to tipping things in his favor.
 
#255
#255
The Heisman is over rated anyway. For me it's all about the rings. I'm sure all Heisman winners that never won a super bowl would agree. One's a popularity contest the other is an achievement. Manning's real let down was having Tee Martin win the NC and not him and that had jack to do with Woodson or ESPN but it also wasn't all his fault either.
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#257
#257
milohimself said:
Late to the party, and I wasn't a UT fan at the time, and I think Woodson deserved the trophy. But I also remember back then, ESPN being really the only source of news and opinion that mattered in CFB at the time, and I remember most of the talking heads on that network putting their eggs in Woodson's basket.

So, I think Woodson deserved it but I also think ESPN did contribute to tipping things in his favor.
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Giiiiit out
skeeter.jpg
 
#258
#258
therealUT said:
22 and 4 is better than 37 and 11. 64.5% is better than 60.3%. The difference in his yards/attempt was negligible.

Are you arguing that Manning had better receivers and faced worse defenses in 1995 than in 1997? That is laughable. On top of that, Manning had as talented, if not more talented, running backs to hand the ball to in 1997 than in 1995.
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37 is better than 22, by quite a lot. 3819 yards is quite a bit more than 2954 years. Point in fact, Manning's college QB rating was higher in 1997 than it was in 1995, though slightly. Also, Kent & Nash weren't a lot different than Nash & Copeland, except Kent ('95, not '97) was better.

And, to say the schedule was the same shows ignorance of the schedule. In '97, Manning faced 7 top-30 secondaries, including 5 teams (4 away from home) who would finish in the top-10 in various power ratings that season (UCLA, Florida, Nebraska, Auburn & Georgia). Two more would have top-20 finishes in various power ratings for the year (Southern Miss & Ole Miss). The defenses were coached by guys named Stoops, Tuberville, Widenhofer, Bower, McBride, all some of the best and most creative in the game, with talent-laden secondaries on their rosters. And an eighth would have one of the best pass defenses in the game coached by a long-time NFL defensive coordinator (Vandy).

Just take Vandy -- do you know many of their pass defense players ended up drafted or in the league? Try all of the following -- LB Antony Jordan, LB Jamie Duncan, DB Corey Chavous, DB Fred Vinson and DB Ainsley Battles.

In 1995, we only faced two teams that would end up in the top-20 in most polls or power ratings (Florida & Ohio State), not 7. Additionally, Florida's defense was a different animal under Stoops than it was in 1995. It definitely didn't have a defensive schedule like 1997 below...

Defensive Rank
Georgia - 11th
Nebraska - 12th
Florida - 13th
Southern Miss - 17th
Vandy - 21st
Auburn - 24th
Ole Miss - 30th
UCLA - 34th
 
#260
#260
VegasVol said:
Most absurd statement ever.
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Indeed, in what has become a series of absurdities this week.

Fortunately I'm late to this thread because both VV and myself hammering the lunatic fringe would have been an only-18 rated UFC beatdown.
 
#261
#261
VegasVol said:
Most absurd statement ever.
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Not that absurd. Very few, if any, would rank Manning higher than Montana or Elway. In your narrow and uninformed mind, I am sure you think I am dissing Manning(which I am not). He might be top 5 of all time....MIGHT...at this point. He's one of the best ever but nowhere near the best ever. Another Super Bowl gets him firmly into the top 5

I would bet you any amount there isn't one single former player/analyst who thinks Manning is better than Elway or Montana.
 
#263
#263
therealUT said:
He also had the best combination of an arm, scrambling ability, and good decision making ability of any QB I've watched. Montana was an immobile QB with a weak arm that was fortunate enough to throw the ball to Jerry Rice and John Taylor, hand the ball to Rathman and Craig, and have Bill Walsh calling all the plays.

Shannon Sharpe is the only offensive player that played with Elway who, IMO, has the slightest chance of being elected to Canton.
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Easily one of the dumbest and most uninformed statements ever made in the history of VolNation.

And I believe you are a pretty intelligent person
 
#265
#265
shortgameVol said:
Easily one of the dumbest and most uninformed statements ever made in the history of VolNation.

And I believe you are a pretty intelligent person
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I trust my eyes on this one. For a starting NFL QB, Montana had a weak arm. While he was not as immobile as Marino, he was certainly not mobile. Could he scramble a little? Yes. That says nothing, though, seeing as Steve Bono set the record for the longest run by a QB when he scrambled for 76 yards in the mid 90s...and, he was definitely not what anyone would consider a mobile QB.
 
#269
#269
droski said:
no he didn't
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The first one that they won his numbers weren't pretty, but he made some big plays, IIRC. Also, I think he played well in one of the games that they lost, at least in terms of yards. Didn't watch, so I can't really be confident in saying that.
 
#270
#270
This position-specific argument that a quarterback’s greatness is largely determined by the number of Super Bowls, national or conference championships that he won is one of the most specious and illogical assertions in all of sports. Would anyone deny that Joe Montana and Dan Marino were both great quarterbacks? Absolutely not. Would anyone deny that they were both Hall of Fame-caliber quarterbacks? No. Was Joe Montana categorically and unequivocally a better quarterback because of the four Super Bowls that the 49ers won while he was their quarterback? I would argue 1,000 times NO! Montana was the beneficiary of a much better supporting cast. As prolific as Marino was, he only played on one team good enough to make it to the Super Bowl. Why? He consistently played for Dolphins teams that had to outscore their opponents due to a less than stellar defense. On the other hand, would anyone in their right mind argue that Trent Dilfer or Doug Williams were as good a quarterback as Peyton? Of course not. However, both quarterbacked the same number of teams to Super Bowl championships as Peyton: one.
 
#272
#272
No one who remembers 1997 is going to buy that article. Manning was a foregone conclusion for the Hypesman until that Michigan-Ohio State game. Woodson had a spectacular game, and Manning passed for 500-some yards against a bad Kentucky defense. The talking heads on ESPN talked up Woodson for the Heisman. The fact that Manning had a great day against a bad defense that same day actually hurt him--it created a perception that he'd run up stats against bad teams. Actually, with one exception, he played fantastic against every good team on our schedule, which was the toughest in the nation in 1997.

And the strangely ironic part about it? I wouldn't have voted for either one of them. Ryan Leaf should have won the Heisman, for taking a crummy Washington State team to a 10-1 record and the Rose Bowl. You could take Woodson or Manning away from their teams and they'd still be good. If you'd taken Leaf away, Wazzu would have been 4-7. At best. I'm sure I'll get shouted down for saying that now, considering what became of Leaf, but we didn't know that 14 years ago, and it's irrelevant anyway. He was the most valuable college player of the 1997 season.

The person who said that Manning's sophomore season was his best was correct. If they really gave the Heisman to the best player, that was the year he should have probably won. There's no way our 1995 team goes 11-1, or anything close to 11-1, without Manning. Our defense sucked and the running game was unreliable. I think Billy Jack Haskins just ran for another touchdown against our '95 "defense."
 
#273
#273
shortgameVol said:
Not that absurd. Very few, if any, would rank Manning higher than Montana or Elway. In your narrow and uninformed mind, I am sure you think I am dissing Manning(which I am not). He might be top 5 of all time....MIGHT...at this point. He's one of the best ever but nowhere near the best ever. Another Super Bowl gets him firmly into the top 5

I would bet you any amount there isn't one single former player/analyst who thinks Manning is better than Elway or Montana.
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It would be child abuse to take that bet from you, since I've talked to and heard players and analysts say exactly that, and most of the ones I know or have heard have said exactly that.

Here's just a few pieces for ya...

Peyton Manning’s Case for Being the Best Ever - NYTimes.com

Peyton Manning is the best NFL quarterback over the past 30 years - Ross Tucker - SI.com

Elway has a career QB rating under 80; that's not even in the top 50. Manning is barely behind Steve Young in that category amongst QBs who have played 10 or more seasons, and is set to set many of the passing records. You clearly have been living in some kind of time warp hole if you think Manning isn't even in the same conversation as those guys.
 
#274
#274
Maybe it's been mentioned, but Manning lost the Heisman mainly because we got waxed two years in a row by florida in BIG, heavily hyped nationally televised games--Manning's junior and senior season. We needed to beat florida, and instead, as usual, we played poorly and got thumped--and immediately support for Manning waned. I think he also threw a pick six in his last game against florida, which was also a problem.
 
#275
#275
VegasVol said:
It would be child abuse to take that bet from you, since I've talked to and heard players and analysts say exactly that, and most of the ones I know or have heard have said exactly that.

Here's just a few pieces for ya...

Peyton Manning’s Case for Being the Best Ever - NYTimes.com

Peyton Manning is the best NFL quarterback over the past 30 years - Ross Tucker - SI.com

Elway has a career QB rating under 80; that's not even in the top 50. Manning is barely behind Steve Young in that category amongst QBs who have played 10 or more seasons, and is set to set many of the passing records. You clearly have been living in some kind of time warp hole if you think Manning isn't even in the same conversation as those guys.
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And, Scottie Pippen says that LeBron is the best ever.

In my opinion, if I were building a team to win multiple Superbowls, Manning is not the QB I would go with. If I were building a team to wreak havoc on passing records, I would pick Manning.
 
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