Not espn's fault that manning lost the heisman?

#226
#226
VegasVol said:
Then please explain how non-national-title contender players like all of the following won the Heisman in the years around Manning...

Sanders - Oklahoma State
Detmer - BYU
Howard - Michigan
Salaam - Colorado
George - Ohio State
Williams - Texas
Dayne - Wisconsin
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ducks_duckling_cute.jpg
 
#228
#228
VegasVol said:
You're mistaken. Our defenses had evened up in talent, but your advantage at the skill positions offensively remained strong, especially with Freshman Lewis not playing much in such an early road game.

Multi-Year NFL Players
Florida-1997
T MO COLLINS
C JEFF MITCHELL
G ZACH PILLER
T COOPER CARLISLE
TE ERRON KINNEY
FB TERRY JACKSON
RB FRED TAYLOR
QB DOUG JOHNSON
WR JACQUEZ GREEN
WR TRAVIS MCGRIFF
DE ELIJAH WILLIAMS
DT REGGIE MCHREW
LB JEVON KEARSE
LB MIKE PETERSON
LB JOHNNY RUTLEDGE
DB FRED WEARY
DB TONY GEORGE

Tennessee-1997
T TEAGUE
G COLEMAN
T CLIFTON
FB BRYSON
RB LEWIS
QB MANNING
WR PRICE
DE BROWN
DE ELLIS
LB LITTLE
LB WILSON
LB THOMPSON
DB FAIR
DB GOODRICH
Click to expand...

If you think replacing Danny Wuerffel with Doug Johnson, Ike Hilliard for Jamie Richardson and Reidel Anthony for Travis McGriff is a wash, then we're well past the point of meaningful discussion.

And Jeff Mitchell was a senior in '96.
 
#229
#229
VegasVol said:
Wrong. Manning was our best talent on a team that didn't have great running backs; it would have been lunacy not to try to pass it a lot. Florida just had more in-state talent for Spurrier to hand-pick from, especially fertile when Miami went on probation in the early-mid 90's. That talent edge carried him, until our unusually good recruiting evened the playing field by 1998, where it was a fun battle for 4 straight years. Seeing Spurrier lose his last ever Florida game on Florida field with a Heisman candidate at QB, an SEC title bid on the line and a national title to boot, as 18-point favorites, was an all-time sweet moment.
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Congrats on the 10-year anniversary of your all-time sweet moment. Since then I've had a few sweet moments myselfs...two national titles, a Heisman, and back-to-back hoops titles thrown in for good measure. But congrats on beating us ten years ago...UT rode that momentum all the way to the Rose Bo....wait, what? :)
 
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#230
#230
VegasVol said:
Then please explain how non-national-title contender players like all of the following won the Heisman in the years around Manning...

Sanders - Oklahoma State
Detmer - BYU
Howard - Michigan
Salaam - Colorado
George - Ohio State
Williams - Texas
Dayne - Wisconsin
Click to expand...

it's not a coincidence that you listed almost soley running backs.

sanders had an unbelievable season.
detmer broke something like 40 passing records.
michigan is michigan
fluke, no real competition
ohio state and nations leading rusher
texas and all time leading rusher in ncaa history
all time leading rusher in ncaa history.

how does peyton compare to any of these?
 
#231
#231
Lawrence Wright said:
Your suggestion that Champ Bailey warranted the same Heisman consideration as Woodson in '97 is laughable.
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One of the individuals below finished first in Heisman voting, and the other finished seventh. How would you explain this?

If Woodson played for a team not in the Big 10 or Pac 10 he wouldn't have sniffed the Heisman his final year.

Stats-1.jpg
 
#233
#233
What some UT fans don't remember is the fact that Manning was the front runner the previous year (1996) at the start of the season. Before his junior season, Manning was featured on the cover of SI's college football issue and was proclaimed as the early Heisman favorite. Of course, a chaise lounge effort at home against Florida sealed his demise that year too.
 
#234
#234
shortgameVol said:
What some UT fans don't remember is the fact that Manning was the front runner the previous year (1996) at the start of the season. Before his junior season, Manning was featured on the cover of SI's college football issue and was proclaimed as the early Heisman favorite. Of course, a chaise lounge effort at home against Florida sealed his demise that year too.
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This is because his best season was his Sophomore season.
 
#235
#235
droski said:
it's not a coincidence that you listed almost soley running backs.

sanders had an unbelievable season.
detmer broke something like 40 passing records.
michigan is michigan
fluke, no real competition
ohio state and nations leading rusher
texas and all time leading rusher in ncaa history
all time leading rusher in ncaa history.

how does peyton compare to any of these?
Click to expand...

Do you mean other than being the best QB to ever play the game?
 
#236
#236
Lawrence Wright said:
If you think replacing Danny Wuerffel with Doug Johnson, Ike Hilliard for Jamie Richardson and Reidel Anthony for Travis McGriff is a wash, then we're well past the point of meaningful discussion.
Click to expand...

I'm not arguing your 1997 team was as good as your 1996 team; I am arguing your 1997 team was as or more talented than our 1997 team.
 
#237
#237
VegasVol said:
Do you mean other than being the best QB to ever play the game?
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Peyton Manning was a better QB, statistically, in his Sophomore campaign than in his Senior campaign. Are you just as outraged that he did not win the Heisman in 1995?
 
#238
#238
Lawrence Wright said:
Your suggestion that Champ Bailey warranted the same Heisman consideration as Woodson in '97 is laughable.
Click to expand...

Name me all the great QBs Woodson faced? Try the best one was Ryan Leaf. Michigan faced a rash of bad passing teams that year, and the one decent wideout he faced torched him for a big play TD that got his team back into the game (see David Boston). All of his offensive & special teams stats were generally worse, often by a very large number, than Bailey's and Bailey played tougher and better competition, as well.
 
#239
#239
therealUT said:
Peyton Manning was a better QB, statistically, in his Sophomore campaign than in his Senior campaign. Are you just as outraged that he did not win the Heisman in 1995?
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His 36 TDs was a little more than the 22 from 1995.

Look at the context for his 1997 performance -- the competition he faced & the people he had to throw the ball to. In 1997, Manning played 7 of the top 30 pass defenses in the country. He still completed 60% of his passes, with 36 TDs to 11 picks, only 12 sacks, with nearly 4,000 yards passing (3819), and averaged nearly 8 years per attempt. He also did it with a receiving corps of mostly athletes, rather than skilled wideouts (save Price), as Price was the only wideout in his top-4 to ever see much NFL action. Manning was so good he got Nash a first round draft bonus for a wideout who caught all of 4 passes in the NFL. By context and competition, Manning's 2007 season remains exceptional, and Woodson winning the Heisman over him the combined product of media bias and the general idiocy of Heisman voters created by their peculiar regional voting-bloc methods.

But, put Manning aside. Do you really think Chuck Long was better than Bo Jackson, because he almost won the Heisman in the closest race ever? Also, how many well-known candidates from USC, Notre Dame or the Big Ten have ever lost the Heisman? You'll be waiting a long time for that answer. What does that tell you about biased voting patterns for the Heisman? Manning was just one victim amongst many; had his uniform read Michigan, USC, Ohio State, or Notre Dame, it's a guarantee he wins at least 1 Heisman award.
 
#240
#240
droski said:
it's not a coincidence that you listed almost soley running backs.

sanders had an unbelievable season.
detmer broke something like 40 passing records.
michigan is michigan
fluke, no real competition
ohio state and nations leading rusher
texas and all time leading rusher in ncaa history
all time leading rusher in ncaa history.

how does peyton compare to any of these?
Click to expand...

I thought the heisman wasn't a career award
 
#241
#241
VegasVol said:
His 36 TDs was a little more than the 22 from 1995.
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22 and 4 is better than 37 and 11. 64.5% is better than 60.3%. The difference in his yards/attempt was negligible.

VegasVol said:
Look at the context for his 1997 performance -- the competition he faced & the people he had to throw the ball to. In 1997, Manning played 7 of the top 30 pass defenses in the country. He still completed 60% of his passes, with 36 TDs to 11 picks, only 12 sacks, with nearly 4,000 yards passing (3819), and averaged nearly 8 years per attempt. He also did it with a receiving corps of mostly athletes, rather than skilled wideouts (save Price), as Price was the only wideout in his top-4 to ever see much NFL action. Manning was so good he got Nash a first round draft bonus for a wideout who caught all of 4 passes in the NFL. By context and competition, Manning's 2007 season remains exceptional, and Woodson winning the Heisman over him the combined product of media bias and the general idiocy of Heisman voters created by their peculiar regional voting-bloc methods.
Click to expand...

Are you arguing that Manning had better receivers and faced worse defenses in 1995 than in 1997? That is laughable. On top of that, Manning had as talented, if not more talented, running backs to hand the ball to in 1997 than in 1995.
 
#242
#242
therealUT said:
22 and 4 is better than 37 and 11. 64.5% is better than 60.3%. The difference in his yards/attempt was negligible.



Are you arguing that Manning had better receivers and faced worse defenses in 1995 than in 1997? That is laughable. On top of that, Manning had as talented, if not more talented, running backs to hand the ball to in 1997 than in 1995.
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Not debating your statement, but are you implying that because the running game was better in '97 that Peyton should have had better passing stats?
 
#244
#244
IBlvNTmWrk said:
Not debating your statement, but are you implying that because the running game was better in '97 that Peyton should have had better passing stats?
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I am implying that with a better running game, a good QB should have better passing efficiency and a higher QB rating. Gross numbers like TDs and yards can either increase or decrease, though.
 
#245
#245
shortgameVol said:
:lolabove:

Regardless of what you think, Manning isn't up there with Montana or Elway
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Montana isn't up there with Elway.

That guy ruined plenty of Chiefs' seasons and I absolutely hated seeing him on the field; however, he is the best QB I have ever seen play the game.
 
#246
#246
elway played in 6 superbowls and only played well in one of them. at least peyton is batting 50%.
 
#247
#247
droski said:
elway played in 6 superbowls and only played well in one of them. at least peyton is batting 50%.
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He also had the best combination of an arm, scrambling ability, and good decision making ability of any QB I've watched. Montana was an immobile QB with a weak arm that was fortunate enough to throw the ball to Jerry Rice and John Taylor, hand the ball to Rathman and Craig, and have Bill Walsh calling all the plays.

Shannon Sharpe is the only offensive player that played with Elway who, IMO, has the slightest chance of being elected to Canton.
 
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#249
#249
VegasVol said:
Name me all the great QBs Woodson faced? Try the best one was Ryan Leaf. Michigan faced a rash of bad passing teams that year, and the one decent wideout he faced torched him for a big play TD that got his team back into the game (see David Boston). All of his offensive & special teams stats were generally worse, often by a very large number, than Bailey's and Bailey played tougher and better competition, as well.
Click to expand...

So you're outraged that Bailey didn't win the Heisman in '97, yes?
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#250
#250
therealUT said:
I am implying that with a better running game, a good QB should have better passing efficiency and a higher QB rating. Gross numbers like TDs and yards can either increase or decrease, though.
Click to expand...

Okay. I guess I don't understand why you give weight to a running game in terms of improving a QB's stats, but you seem to discredit the talent of the receivers the QB is throwing to and the defense he is playing against.
 
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