Obama/McCain and Russia/Georgia

[allvol123]

... I'm Henry the Eighth, I am ...

That made me laugh out loud for some reason.

 

[allvol123]

Just to confuse matters more, my comments were a play on those from LG.

I'm just disappointed LG never came back. He has a penchant for for hit and run posting.

 

[MontereyVol]

So how did you do? I'm too ashamed to share my results.

Lets just say I nuked it.

and then I complained about it

 

[lawgator1]

You say it like you have disliked the man for some time law.

I don't know him, but evidently you do? Also, no sources for your accusatory post earlier? Ah yes, Mr. Lawgator, how could I have not guessed that?

Just to confuse matters more, my comments were a play on those from LG.

I'm just disappointed LG never came back. He has a penchant for for hit and run posting.

He's a well known conservative writer and editor. In fact, he was held over as sort of the lone conservative over at the Sun Times after a re-organization. Even conservatives call him conservative: Chicago Sun Times 'Moving Forward' by Returning To Its Liberal Roots | NewsBusters.org

He's Bob Novak's editor, if memory serves.

Citing a guy like Huntley on what Obama's position is would not not quite equate with quoting Al Franken on McCain, but its's not that far from it.

 

[BigPapaVol]

Citing a guy like Huntley on what Obama's position is would not not quite equate with quoting Al Franken on McCain, but its's not that far from it.

the fact that someone actually read it says it is light years away from anything Franken might produce.

 

[therealUT]

This whole situation has been handled badly by everyone outside of Russia.

Yes, Russia is doing a fantastic job of invading a sovereign nation when there was absolutely no threat to any other nation and absolutely no precedent, treaty, nor regulation to come anywhere close to justifying the large-scale offensive launched this past week.

Russia is making a power move on the pipeline that runs from the Caspian coast in Azerbaijan through Georgia and ultimately ends in Turkey. You say that you care about energy policy? You might want to go with the guy who is going to keep Russia from gaining a monopoly on Caspian crude oil. Just a thought...

 

[MontereyVol]

Yes, Russia is doing a fantastic job of invading a sovereign nation when there was absolutely no threat to any other nation and absolutely no precedent, treaty, nor regulation to come anywhere close to justifying the large-scale offensive launched this past week.

Russia is making a power move on the pipeline that runs from the Caspian coast in Azerbaijan through Georgia and ultimately ends in Turkey. You say that you care about energy policy? You might want to go with the guy who is going to keep Russia from gaining a monopoly on Caspian crude oil. Just a thought...

Like it or not they did it and no one was positioned to stop them. So yes it was handled exceptionally by the Russians mostly for the fact they are going to get what they want.

And I know all about the pipeline, I would like to hear how you think McCain or anyone else outside of Russia plans on stopping them if they wanted it?

I guess we can keep yelling at them? Maybe they will get annoyed and go away?

 

[BigPapaVol]

Like it or not they did it and no one was positioned to stop them. So yes it was handled exceptionally by the Russians mostly for the fact they are going to get what they want.

And I know all about the pipeline, I would like to hear how you think McCain or anyone else outside of Russia plans on stopping them if they wanted it?

I guess we can keep yelling at them? Maybe they will get annoyed and go away?

first tactic would be as quickly as possible paint Putin and his cronies as pre-'88 style Soviet commies bent on expansion. The world turns against them quickly if you can make them appear to be regressing to their old form.

 

[GAVol]

first tactic would be as quickly as possible paint Putin and his cronies as pre-'88 style Soviet commies bent on expansion. The world turns against them quickly if you can make them appear to be regressing to their old form.

Agreed 100%. W has not been strong enough in rebuking Putin.

 

[MontereyVol]

look at the news, hell even Huffington is doing that. The problem is the world (or mostly Europe) is going to need them anyways. The EU doesn't have much of a leg to stand on and they will whine all day until Russia cuts off the oil. The Soviets (yes, on purpose) only back down when actual force can be applied, they will back down but only when they have achieved their objective.

Without a serious military backed threat Russia will do what it wants. The challenge here is to get China mad at them.

 

[BigPapaVol]

The challenge here is to get China mad at them.

funny how the whole affair coincides with a couple weeks of China being on the shelf.

 

[MontereyVol]

I cant imagine the Chinese are pleased that they are sharing headlines with this, during the glorious olympics.

 

[therealUT]

The Soviets (yes, on purpose) only back down when actual force can be applied,

Actual force most definitely can be applied. While we do not have the troop availability to move in and secure Georgia, we definitely have the technological superiority and could efficiently and effectively destroy their Armor and most of their indirect fire capabilities. That alone would make Putin think twice about engaging in what would devolve into a bloody street-to-street conflict, in which the Georgians have the advantage gained by having superior knowledge of the terrain and of blending into the local populace.

Russia has not faired well against their old states in guerrilla fights. The US most certainly has the capability,at hand, to help the Georgians turn this situation into another Chechnya for Russia.

 

[MontereyVol]

That wouldn't be the smartest move on our part. while I agree that we have the technical superiority to smash them right in the mouth your talking about opening a third front of war. The implications of a wider conflict with Russia with every ME terrorist drooling to take advantage would be overwhelming. I have doubts whether we would get any help from Europe.

I think something in the order of moving the US Navy into the Black Sea might be a display of force they would consider stepping back from, but we would need Turkey's permission to do that, and it wouldn't hold my breath on that one.

 

[tim]

Now.. Is there any doubt that the missle shield will be installed?

 

[therealUT]

The implications of a wider conflict with Russia with every ME terrorist drooling to take advantage would be overwhelming. I have doubts whether we would get any help from Europe.

Exactly what are Arab terrorist going to do in Georgia? Less than 10% of the country state that they are even affiliated with Islam, even less actually practice. I doubt there would be much sympathy, the kind needed to harbor Middle Eastern Fundamentalists, towards the Fascist Islamic cause.

I think something in the order of moving the US Navy into the Black Sea might be a display of force they would consider stepping back from, but we would need Turkey's permission to do that, and it wouldn't hold my breath on that one.

Interesting that you are intimidated by Russia to the point of not sending superior fighter and attack jets to knock out military targets. Yet, you would move a very easy to reach Naval Fleet into the Black Sea? Not sure I understand that thinking, one bit.

However, were one to try and pursue that method, I am sure Turkey would oblige, seeing as their control over the pipeline would be severely hampered if Russian troops move close enough to Tbilisi.

 

[TennTradition]

Now.. Is there any doubt that the missle shield will be installed?

I would imagine that we would do it just to make them even more mad at this point. But, we surely wouldn't install it to better protect us from Russia - remember, it can't defend against Russian missiles (yeah right).

 

[MontereyVol]

Exactly what are Arab terrorist going to do in Georgia? Less than 10% of the country state that they are even affiliated with Islam, even less actually practice. I doubt there would be much sympathy, the kind needed to harbor Middle Eastern Fundamentalists, towards the Fascist Islamic cause.

I'm not talking about the Georgians, I'm referring to the ME, specifically Iraq and Afghanistan. Those two states would be emboldened with a new front opening up. So unless you plan on dropping those two and concentrating on Russia that would make it a three front spread war.

Interesting that you are intimidated by Russia to the point of not sending superior fighter and attack jets to knock out military targets. Yet, you would move a very easy to reach Naval Fleet into the Black Sea? Not sure I understand that thinking, one bit.

However, were one to try and pursue that method, I am sure Turkey would oblige, seeing as their control over the pipeline would be severely hampered if Russian troops move close enough to Tbilisi.

I never said to send in a fleet, the Navy has some high powered weapons of their own. And you are mistaken if you think we would fly over who.... Iran, Turkey.... northern Russia? to hit the Soviets and then return without any kind of reciprocity.

You want to save the pipeline, you need ground troops to do that, fly byes wont do it. With the whole of Mother Russia sitting within 100 miles you can forget that. Hell we can't even secure the ones in Iraq.

and don't forget how willing Turkey was to let us go over their territory before the gulf war.

 

[MontereyVol]

Now.. Is there any doubt that the missle shield will be installed?

I would imagine that we would do it just to make them even more mad at this point. But, we surely wouldn't install it to better protect us from Russia - remember, it can't defend against Russian missiles (yeah right).

Believe me, this option is no longer a threat, its going to be built.

 

[TennTradition]

Believe me, this option is no longer a threat, its going to be built.

Yeah...I agree. With Russia beginning to become more aggressive, I wonder if we will suddenly announce that we have "modified" the system to protect Western Europe from their missiles...though no such modification was necessary...it is already going to do that. (Well...I don't believe it can really protect against a sophisticated, decoyed weapon...but my point is that it CAN CATCH Russian missiles.) I just don't like the lies we've apparently spread across Europe about the system.

 

[therealUT]

I'm not talking about the Georgians, I'm referring to the ME, specifically Iraq and Afghanistan. Those two states would be emboldened with a new front opening up. So unless you plan on dropping those two and concentrating on Russia that would make it a three front spread war.

We do not need to divert ground troops from Iraq to send in to Georgia. We do not need to send in ground troops at all. We just have to empower the Georgians to fight a guerrilla war against the Russians. They can do this once we have debilitated Russian armor, artillery, and tactical air support capabilities.

I never said to send in a fleet, the Navy has some high powered weapons of their own. And you are mistaken if you think we would fly over who.... Iran, Turkey.... northern Russia to hit the Soviets and then return without any kind of reciprocity.

We would fly over Turkey. In March 2003, Turkey's piece of the pipeline was not being threatened by Russia.

You want to save the pipeline, you need ground troops to do that, fly byes wont do it. With the whole of Mother Russia sitting within 100 miles you can forget that. Hell we can't even secure the ones in Iraq.

Secure who in Iraq? Russians or Chechans? Also, last time I checked, we were doing a pretty brilliant job, militarily speaking, in Iraq.

and don't forget how willing Turkey was to let us go over their territory before the gulf war.

Refer to above statement regarding Turkey in 2003. Also, you make it sound as if Turkey was completely adverse to letting us stage in their country. It was a pretty tight decision made...at the very last second. Give them the threat of Russia and let's see how willing they are to play ball this time around.

 

[MontereyVol]

well they are working on and building missiles to combat this, however thats how we won the cold war. If they want to start another arms race, good it helps our economy and hurts theirs.

 

[MontereyVol]

We do not need to divert ground troops from Iraq to send in to Georgia. We do not need to send in ground troops at all. We just have to empower the Georgians to fight a guerrilla war against the Russians. They can do this once we have debilitated Russian armor, artillery, and tactical air support capabilities.

They would be fighting Russia, Abkhazians and the South Ossetians, they definitely cannot fight a three front war. Once again Russia would strike us back, who and where do you leave open for them to do it?

We would fly over Turkey. In March 2003, Turkey's piece of the pipeline was not being threatened by Russia.

Are you really banking on that. They had plenty of incentive last time and still turned it down. Plus staying out of two world beaters having a fight would be what they choose over some pipeline.

Secure who in Iraq? Russians or Chechans? Also, last time I checked, we were doing a pretty brilliant job, militarily speaking, in Iraq.

yes, militarily speaking, once politics gets involved no. Troops have to stay on station for targets such as these .

Refer to above statement regarding Turkey in 2003. Also, you make it sound as if Turkey was completely adverse to letting us stage in their country. It was a pretty tight decision made...at the very last second. Give them the threat of Russia and let's see how willing they are to play ball this time around.

I'll refer to the Turkish officers I deal with and their opinions on how their country would react. They will want no part of this and start looking for the oil input from somewhere else.

 

[therealUT]

They would be fighting Russia, Abkhazians and the South Ossetians, they definitely cannot fight a three front war. Once again Russia would strike us back, who and where do you leave open for them to do it?

First, in guerrilla warfare, there are no "fronts". Second, even if there were, it would be one continuous front from NW Georgia to NE Georgia. The Georgians would not be fighting on multiple fronts (for arguments sake, using your example, would the Germans have been fighting a four-front war in WWI...???)

Are you really banking on that. They had plenty of incentive last time and still turned it down. Plus staying out of two world beaters having a fight would be what they choose over some pipeline.

Turkey consumes seven times the amount of oil they produce. They get most of that oil from the pipeline. Seeing that Russia has targeted the pipeline already, as well as having cut-off select European countries from oil, at times, I would probably side with the pipeline and who is going to assure my continued standard of living.

 

[MontereyVol]

First, in guerrilla warfare, there are no "fronts". Second, even if there were, it would be one continuous front from NW Georgia to NE Georgia. The Georgians would not be fighting on multiple fronts (for arguments sake, using your example, would the Germans have been fighting a four-front war in WWI...???)

In guerrilla warfare the opposition doesn't have a visible base to attack, Georgia does. They would still have to defend their cities from being overrun by Russians. You seem to think they can move into the breakaway provinces and and conduct a guerrilla campaign and not worry that Russia would come in and hit their civilians hard! The Russians aren't bound by our MSM's code of ethics for war.

Turkey consumes seven times the amount of oil they produce. They get most of that oil from the pipeline. Seeing that Russia has targeted the pipeline already, as well as having cut-off select European countries from oil, at times, I would probably side with the pipeline and who is going to assure my continued standard of living.

Or if Turkey sided with the Russians the pipeline from Tabriz could more than deliver what they need and they could keep the Georgian pipeline and not worry a bit about what we did.