Obama's Final Betrayal

[sjt18]

Not really. This is the veiled "black people in the US bring everything down."

There is nothing "veiled" about it. It is simple honesty. But we aren't able to be honest with ourselves, are we? We still have to live in denial or be labeled racist or worse.

That problem is also one where we have to take a long honest look at reality... and recognize what gov't "goodness" has done since Moynihan's study of the black family in the early 60's.

Take one of the "worst" in Europe - the UK.

Their white population does a lot better than our white population as far as life expectancy and overall health. In addition, they have plenty of "demographics" too.

Their "population" can arbitrarily be denied service if it is not cost effective to treat them.

Cite your data. I want the raw data not someone's spin. I also do not want life expentancy projections. I want actual current death age averages.

 

[sjt18]

Earlier, you wanted efficiency. I gave you efficiency, now you're mad that the real world doesn't meet your ideology. Well, either you're tough enough to take it, or maybe you do need the nanny state?

No. I am not mad. I dispute the notion that what you posted is tethered to reality. But if you want to believe it then go to a place that has already implemented your ideals and let us be.

Either way, health care is a basic human right - ERGO, it fits right into your system anyway. You want freedom and rights. Health care is a basic human right.

Health care IS NOT A RIGHT much less a "basic human right". NO ONE has a "right" to ANYTHING that must be financed by the forced confiscation of someone else's property/wealth/earnings.

 

[sjt18]

Either way, health care is a basic human right - ERGO, it fits right into your system anyway. You want freedom and rights. Health care is a basic human right.

.

I have changed my mind. I have a right to health care paid for by someone else. I choose you. Please PM your bank account to me immediately so I can set up the draft.

 

[utgibbs]

this post is nothing but lies. You're no longer merely stretching the truth in support of your socialist/marxist views, you are flat out lying.

Prove it, huckleberry. Back that big talk up!

 

[utgibbs]

No. I am not mad. I dispute the notion that what you posted is tethered to reality. But if you want to believe it then go to a place that has already implemented your ideals and let us be.



Health care IS NOT A RIGHT much less a "basic human right". NO ONE has a "right" to ANYTHING that must be financed by the forced confiscation of someone else's property/wealth/earnings.

No one has a right to anything? Are you an American? Are you a despot? I'll go ahead and take your house and one of your cars (you can keep the rest). Your property prevents me from having it all. I call FIRST!

Health Care has been codified as a basic human right for a very long time. You stand in a tiny minority. A huge cross-section from across the spectrum of human culture believe and have ratified health care as a human right.

 

[utgibbs]

everything is a right to some people. Thankfully they don't get very far

Except you (as usual) stand in a tiny minority whereas the vast majority of the human population across every culture has ratified health care as a basic human right.

I actually admire those Don Quixote types who stand against the grain, no matter how silly they look.

 

[droski]

Strange how gpd and wage growth in the US has dwarfed our euro socialist buddies the past 50 years if more taxes equal more wealth.

 

[droski]

S

Except you (as usual) stand in a tiny minority whereas the vast majority of the human population across every culture has ratified health care as a basic human right.

I actually admire those Don Quixote types who stand against the grain, no matter how silly they look.

Ever heard of medicaid?

 

[utvolpj]

Except you (as usual) stand in a tiny minority whereas the vast majority of the human population across every culture has ratified health care as a basic human right.

I actually admire those Don Quixote types who stand against the grain, no matter how silly they look.

the vast majority of people in this world are morons. I don't really care that someone wants to live in a country where their lives are controlled by the gov't. I'm smart enough to figure things out on my own.

and the fact you disagree with me makes me feel infinitely better about my position

 

[MG1968]

Prove it, huckleberry. Back that big talk up!

every post of yours reinforces my assertion that you're a delusional liar

otherwise, the Euro-socialist utopias wouldn't be telling the US to not make the same mistakes they've made, they would be embracing the Obama administration's headlong rush to destroy the US (and thus the world's) economy.

if health care is a "basic human right", who has the responsibility to provide it and what enforcement mechanism does this party have? Should the government be allowed, through the threat of force, to compel doctors to provide medical care for free or at a cost the government deems appropriate?

All of our other rights don't involve placing a financial burden on somebody else. Nor do they involve compulsory behavior by another party.

 

[volinbham]

Either way, health care is a basic human right - ERGO, it fits right into your system anyway. You want freedom and rights. Health care is a basic human right.

Explain the scope of this right to me UTGibbs (seriously).

What is "healthcare"? Is everyone entitled to an organ transplant regardless of their insurance policy? What about highly expensive drugs?

How do you determine treatment and procedures that are part of this "right" and those that are not?

Are we all entitled to any healthcare treatment/procedure that exists?

 

[utgibbs]

Strange how gpd and wage growth in the US has dwarfed our euro socialist buddies the past 50 years if more taxes equal more wealth.

Has it?

 

[utgibbs]

Explain the scope of this right to me UTGibbs (seriously).

What is "healthcare"? Is everyone entitled to an organ transplant regardless of their insurance policy? What about highly expensive drugs?

How do you determine treatment and procedures that are part of this "right" and those that are not?

Are we all entitled to any healthcare treatment/procedure that exists?

Great question!

Obviously, there are not infinite resources, and there are not infinite organs available for donation. Insurance policy, btw, should have nothing to do with it whatsoever. Here again we see a tremendous "market failure" as demonstrated by the illegal organ harvesting "trade."

Again, I think you can only "default" to democracy and fairness. Basic health care for everyone in the nation is an absolute. When you discuss who gets advanced cancer treatments and organs, it should be done as democratically and as fairly as possible. I am happy to leave those decisions in the hands of the culture in question. These are, after all, the very reasons philosophy, adult thinking, and tough decision making are important.

 

[droski]

Has it?

By any metric.

 

[volinbham]

Great question!

Obviously, there are not infinite resources, and there are not infinite organs available for donation. Insurance policy, btw, should have nothing to do with it whatsoever. Here again we see a tremendous "market failure" as demonstrated by the illegal organ harvesting "trade."

Again, I think you can only "default" to democracy and fairness. Basic health care for everyone in the nation is an absolute. When you discuss who gets advanced cancer treatments and organs, it should be done as democratically and as fairly as possible. I am happy to leave those decisions in the hands of the culture in question. These are, after all, the very reasons philosophy, adult thinking, and tough decision making are important.

surely you can see how unworkable this solution is.

First, we have to define "basic healthcare". Currently people are treated if presenting with major trauma or life threatening illness - basic?

Second, we have left the answer in the hands of the culture and this culture says universal care is not the solution - I'm guessing you don't buy that answer though.

So as you see, we have basic health care now and the culture/democracy has determined how to dole out HC beyond the basics. So what's the problem?

 

[utgibbs]

the vast majority of people in this world are morons. I don't really care that someone wants to live in a country where their lives are controlled by the gov't. I'm smart enough to figure things out on my own.

and the fact you disagree with me makes me feel infinitely better about my position

Hardly.

Having universal health care is also hardly having your life controlled by your government. However, I've heard you in favor of more military, more police, more prisons, the very units of authority WHICH CAN control your life. :facepalm:

You begin to wonder how debased the conversation can really go sometimes.

I will say, regarding your first point, no where is political infantalism as prevalent as the United States.

 

[utgibbs]

surely you can see how unworkable this solution is.

First, we have to define "basic healthcare". Currently people are treated if presenting with major trauma or life threatening illness - basic?

Second, we have left the answer in the hands of the culture and this culture says universal care is not the solution - I'm guessing you don't buy that answer though.

So as you see, we have basic health care now and the culture/democracy has determined how to dole out HC beyond the basics. So what's the problem?

It works better than our system in over 20 population sized models. That's all I'm saying. Our system excludes 50 million people from a fundamental human right. And, despite this, still delivers what care it does at far higher costs per unit.

Most people want universal coverage. Most doctors want universal coverage in the US. Everyone, from both sides of the ruler, wanted efficiency. Admirable, probably one of the most important words of the 21st century.

Our culture, however, does allow a tiny minority to dictate the terms of the debate. And, clearly, to obfuscate all the facts from the real world given almost no one in this thread had any real concept of the real world trends. If you like that state of affairs, good for you. I believe we can (and should) do much, much better.

Authentic democracy requires an authentic dialogue.

 

[utgibbs]

By any metric.

I'm positively waiting with baited breath!

 

[volinbham]

It works better than our system in over 20 population sized models. That's all I'm saying. Our system excludes 50 million people from a fundamental human right. And, despite this, still delivers what care it does at far higher costs per unit.

not true at all - 50 may be uninsured but that doesn't mean they don't receive healthcare - so we are back to the definition of "Basic".

Most people want universal coverage. Most doctors want universal coverage in the US. Everyone, from both sides of the ruler, wanted efficiency. Admirable, probably one of the most important words of the 21st century.

evidence that most people want universal coverage? doctors want universal coverage? what do you mean by universal coverage?

Our culture, however, does allow a tiny minority to dictate the terms of the debate. And, clearly, to obfuscate all the facts from the real world given almost no one in this thread had any real concept of the real world trends. If you like that state of affairs, good for you. I believe we can (and should) do much, much better.

oh that's right, only you know what's "really going on" out there. give me a break. you claim to support democracy and culture deciding. well that has happened and you don't like the outcome so you fall back on the "minority deciding" crap. individuals in this country have as much or more input in to the system than any of the countries you admire so much. the fact that so far we've chose this system which you disagree with apparently doesn't sit well with you. instead, you'd like to force your views on the country in the name of basic human rights and democracy. ironic ain't it?

Authentic democracy requires an authentic dialogue.

how can we have an authentic dialogue when your response to those with opposing views is that they are narrow-minded, insular, dupes being controlled by the man.

 

[utvolpj]

Hardly.

Having universal health care is also hardly having your life controlled by your government.

actually it would be the very definition of controlling your life

However, I've heard you in favor of more military, more police, more prisons, the very units of authority WHICH CAN control your life. :facepalm:

link? Pretty sure I've said the exact opposite many times in this forum

 

[utgibbs]

every post of yours reinforces my assertion that you're a delusional liar

otherwise, the Euro-socialist utopias wouldn't be telling the US to not make the same mistakes they've made, they would be embracing the Obama administration's headlong rush to destroy the US (and thus the world's) economy.

if health care is a "basic human right", who has the responsibility to provide it and what enforcement mechanism does this party have? Should the government be allowed, through the threat of force, to compel doctors to provide medical care for free or at a cost the government deems appropriate?

All of our other rights don't involve placing a financial burden on somebody else. Nor do they involve compulsory behavior by another party.

I refer you to Article 25 of the Declaration of Human Rights which celebrated 62 years last week....

This "financial burden" stuff has finally become tedious. YOU PAY MORE FOR WORSE HEALTH CARE THAN THOSE COUNTRIES WITH UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE!!!!!!! You, by your stupidity, are putting a financial burden ON ME (everybody). By your own arguments, you defeat yourself.

I don't mind people throwing punches. But you better have some good shiz if you want to call someone a liar. And you don't have it.

 

[utgibbs]

how can we have an authentic dialogue when your response to those with opposing views is that they are narrow-minded, insular, dupes being controlled by the man.

Laughable.

I've shown how the opposing view doesn't jive with the real world.

I've praised everyone who wanted efficiency (which was everyone). But then, when you are presented with a mountain of data - both technical (WHO data) and cultural (the vast majority opinion that health care is a human right) - suddenly, that's not what you wanted at all.

The facts from the real world support my case.

The majority cultural opinion supports my case.

So pj called the entire world idiots. MG called me a liar and got taken to the woodshed hard since he couldn't back it up. sjt went into vapor lock.

So please tell me who is being insular and narrow-minded and not conducting an authentic dialogue again. opcorn: I think you, bham, have conducted the debate well until you pooch kicked with the post above.

 

[utgibbs]

actually it would be the very definition of controlling your life



link? Pretty sure I've said the exact opposite many times in this forum

I think we have ample evidence the "death squads" are actually the insurance companies.

On your second point, this makes me very happy. I was actually firing blind; I didn't have any data on your stand on these issues. But I assumed you would correct me if I were in error. I will gladly stand in error on this matter given those are your true feelings.

 

[volinbham]

Laughable.

I've shown how the opposing view doesn't jive with the real world.

I've praised everyone who wanted efficiency (which was everyone). But then, when you are presented with a mountain of data - both technical (WHO data) and cultural (the vast majority opinion that health care is a human right) - suddenly, that's not what you wanted at all.

WHO data is rooted in the philosophy you espouse - quality is defined in large measure by equitable access. Equitable access is a distinct construct from HC quality. Conflating quality and equity is simply a diversion to argue that quality is better outside the US. If you pull apart the WHO data you will see that the US ranks at the top in terms of technical quality of care. Our WHO ranking is lowered because not all get the same quality of care. It is apples and oranges. You can argue that all should get the same quality but that is a separate argument leading to...

WRT cultural opinion: 1) which culture are you speaking of? The U.S. is the democracy that matters in this case and I don't see the data suggesting that the citizens of the U.S. strongly prefer universal care. 2) the notion of HC as a basic human right is entirely dependent on defining what HC is. You earlier suggested that is up to the populace via democratic processes. So we are back to the issue of what do U.S. citizens desire? To date, the citizenry has rejected the notion of universal care.
The facts from the real world support my case.

The majority cultural opinion supports my case.

So pj called the entire world idiots. MG called me a liar and got taken to the woodshed hard since he couldn't back it up. sjt went into vapor lock.

So please tell me who is being insular and narrow-minded and not conducting an authentic dialogue again. opcorn: I think you, bham, have conducted the debate well until you pooch kicked with the post above.

So you set the terms of debate? You've proved nothing yet beg for "authentic dialogue". You use circular and inconsistent logic to discount opposing views.

The world view is meaningless when it comes to a sovereign country deciding democratically what the role of the government should be. You argue for empowering the citizenry then suggest only some of those citizens know the "real deal" and that if they followed the view of those outside the country then they would finally be "correct". It's contradictory. If you want democracy you've got to accept that those that oppose your views have as much say as you. You may consider them to be uneducated and unaware of the real world but the truth is they likely will think of you in the same vein. Ah, the beauty of democracy - your view has no more value than any other individual.

So in the interest of authentic dialogue - show where the citizenry that matters in this issue (US) favors universal care along the lines of Euro HC?

 

[BeecherVol]

I see this thread got better.