Obama's Final Betrayal

[bam15]

I see this thread got better.

The academia showed up.

 

[utgibbs]

@bham

Poll: The Politics Of Health Care - CBS News

Supermajority of Americans polled want universal health coverage / supermajority believe government should intervene.

World culture + our culture.

As for the WHO "bias", again you are wrong. First, access is, OF COURSE, a primary metric. If you are ashamed of US access to care, good. You should be. The WHO criteria includes: overall health levels, responsiveness, distribution of health in populations, fairness of financial contribution, access, and about 50 other metrics. All valid, all good metrics.

Data from the real world.

Cultural opinion both here and elsewhere.

I get the feeling that you are such an isolated minority, you feel trapped in a corner. I certainly have no intention of changing your beliefs. However, I will be bringing the real world in any debate every single time. If that makes you feel cornered, perhaps you should re-evaluate?

 

[volinbham]

@bham

Poll: The Politics Of Health Care - CBS News

Supermajority of Americans polled want universal health coverage / supermajority believe government should intervene.

World culture + our culture.

As for the WHO "bias", again you are wrong. First, access is, OF COURSE, a primary metric. If you are ashamed of US access to care, good. You should be. The WHO criteria includes: overall health levels, responsiveness, distribution of health in populations, fairness of financial contribution, access, and about 50 other metrics. All valid, all good metrics.

Data from the real world.

Cultural opinion both here and elsewhere.

I get the feeling that you are such an isolated minority, you feel trapped in a corner. I certainly have no intention of changing your beliefs. However, I will be bringing the real world in any debate every single time. If that makes you feel cornered, perhaps you should re-evaluate?

Your data is old - when I have time I'll provide countervailing data. Also you should note that the data you provided indicates Americans strongly believe in a private insurance is preferable to government insurance - I believe you told us "real world data" shows that insurance represents market failure. If this is your evidence of demand for universal (government - based) HC then perhaps you need to re-evaluate your stance on insurance.

On the WHO nonsense again you miss the point. They use multiple metrics to evaluate what they call "quality". Equitable access is a metric that may certainly be valued but it is a distinct construct from the quality of care that any individual receives. Again, going back to your "real world data", the vast majority of Americans are satisfied with the HC they receive (a perceptual measure of quality). The poll you cite indicates dissatisfaction with: 1) cost and 2) access for some. If we are to believe your poll is the representation of American thought then we have to take it all.

I don't even know what you are getting at with the "trapped" part. It is pure meaningless speculation on your part and another example of you drawing conclusions without facts to support them, then cloaking yourself in "real world information". Earlier, you made declarative statements regarding PJ's beliefs with no basis in fact and you were wrong. Seems to be a habit.

 

[utgibbs]

Your data is old - when I have time I'll provide countervailing data. Also you should note that the data you provided indicates Americans strongly believe in a private insurance is preferable to government insurance - I believe you told us "real world data" shows that insurance represents market failure. If this is your evidence of demand for universal (government - based) HC then perhaps you need to re-evaluate your stance on insurance.

On the WHO nonsense again you miss the point. They use multiple metrics to evaluate what they call "quality". Equitable access is a metric that may certainly be valued but it is a distinct construct from the quality of care that any individual receives. Again, going back to your "real world data", the vast majority of Americans are satisfied with the HC they receive (a perceptual measure of quality). The poll you cite indicates dissatisfaction with: 1) cost and 2) access for some. If we are to believe your poll is the representation of American thought then we have to take it all.

The poll just happened to be #1 in a Google search. I could provide many, many more. You wanted evidence - evidence provided. More evidence could be provided on a whim. I had to spend almost NO TIME to produce the evidence, because I know the data. It is interesting how it will take you a lot of time to produce contrarian data.... HMMMMMMM.

The WHO data is from 2000. I think you will find the US metrics got worse over the Bush years. The WHO established a baseline for "quality" which no serious commentator has a problem with.

I said illegal organ harvesting was a market failure. I've said nothing on insurance except that it is inefficient. And I've clearly provided plenty of evidence on that count.

As for pj, I shot blind to save time. When he provided better data, I graciously conceded. I think it might be time for you to do the same.

 

[Lexvol]

Drugs are a major cost in healthcare. The failure in the system is that insurance provides too much coverage. In that model the US is simply stuck paying the R&D for the rest of the commies. If we all had to purchase our own drugs up to a larger deductible, you would see an epic drop in healthcare costs. Of course some people would have to stop eating out and maybe cancel the Playboy Channel, or even put off a car purchase in order to pay for their healthcare. Until we allow the market to determine the costs, we will continue to pay R&D for the rest of the world.

There are much better ways to cut cost and improve quality without the govt's involvement. I wouldn't be opposed to a discussion on rewarding/encouraging regional not for profit insurance carriers.

 

[volinbham]

The poll just happened to be #1 in a Google search. I could provide many, many more. You wanted evidence - evidence provided. More evidence could be provided on a whim. I had to spend almost NO TIME to produce the evidence, because I know the data. It is interesting how it will take you a lot of time to produce contrarian data.... HMMMMMMM.

flawed argument - haven't check and your own "data" showed widespread satisfaction and high preference for a private insurance model.

The WHO data is from 2000. I think you will find the US metrics got worse over the Bush years. The WHO established a baseline for "quality" which no serious commentator has a problem with.

Where's the data to show the metrics got worse since 2000? As for "quality" baseline if you look at the components a country with universal care that is of lower quality than most Americans have access to will rate higher than the US based on per capita spending on HC and equity of access. That means a Cuba may rate along with the US because everyone gets the same care that is INFERIOR to what most Americans get - when you factor in that some Americans get worse care due to lack of insurance then the scores on "quality" equalize. I doubt most Americans would prefer the Cuban HC system to ours regardless of what you or Michael Moore suggest.

I said illegal organ harvesting was a market failure. I've said nothing on insurance except that it is inefficient. And I've clearly provided plenty of evidence on that count.

Yet the vast majority of Americans desire a private insurance system over a government run system.

As for pj, I shot blind to save time. When he provided better data, I graciously conceded. I think it might be time for you to do the same.

I've provided data and you've swept it aside. I find it amusing that you feel you are the holder of "facts" and those who disagree with you are misinformed.

 

[volinbham]

Drugs are a major cost in healthcare. The failure in the system is that insurance provides too much coverage. In that model the US is simply stuck paying the R&D for the rest of the commies. If we all had to purchase our own drugs up to a larger deductible, you would see an epic drop in healthcare costs. Of course some people would have to stop eating out and maybe cancel the Playboy Channel, or even put off a car purchase in order to pay for their healthcare. Until we allow the market to determine the costs, we will continue to pay R&D for the rest of the world.

There are much better ways to cut cost and improve quality without the govt's involvement. I wouldn't be opposed to a discussion on rewarding/encouraging regional not for profit insurance carriers.

All valid points but not at all "real world data" Lex.

 

[Lexvol]

All valid points but not at all "real world data" Lex.

Part of me thinks the whole govt healthcare issue is an attempt to keep us borrowing and paying on "durable" goods, a much less altruistic motive....

Spend less than you make and save for emergencies.

Here is the kicker. In the next few years you are all going to hear about ACOs. Accountable Care Organizations. Hospitals will be buying physician practices, creating their own provider network. They will then approach your employer and offer a direct health insurance plan using their network. It is a huge part of the healthcare bill that will not go away, and for all practical purposes it is nothing more than a rehashed HMO plan.+

 

[volinbham]

Okay Gibbs a simple Google search for me as well:

U.S. Still Split on Whether Gov't Should Ensure Healthcare

PRINCETON, NJ -- Continuing a change in attitudes first seen last year, Americans remain split on the issue of whether it is the federal government's responsibility to make sure all Americans have healthcare coverage. At the same time, 61% prefer a healthcare system based mostly on private insurance rather than a government-run system.

Support is not strong in America today for a broad, government-run healthcare system similar to those in operation in Canada, as well as Great Britain and other European countries. A clear majority of Americans continue to support the idea of a healthcare system based on private insurance.

 

[volinbham]

Part of me thinks the whole govt healthcare issue is an attempt to keep us borrowing and paying on "durable" goods, a much less altruistic motive....

Spend less than you make and save for emergencies.

Here is the kicker. In the next few years you are all going to hear about ACOs. Accountable Care Organizations. Hospitals will be buying physician practices, creating their own provider network. They will then approach your employer and offer a direct health insurance plan using their network. It is a huge part of the healthcare bill that will not go away, and for all practical purposes it is nothing more than a rehashed HMO plan.+

Saw a talk from a leading Consumer Driven HC proponent - Regina Herzinger. It's pretty amazing how far we limit competition in HC and in insurance.

We continually take more and more choice and responsibility out of the hands of people and into bureaucratic systems.

 

[rmsmith]

I miss my HMO. Surgery for my arrhythmia was $20, vs now it would be $5000.

 

[BigPapaVol]

Saw a talk from a leading Consumer Driven HC proponent - Regina Herzinger. It's pretty amazing how far we limit competition in HC and in insurance.

We continually take more and more choice and responsibility out of the hands of people and into bureaucratic systems.

Govt has made the industry anything but a marketplace. It's a bunch localized monopolies, jacked up by our mentality toward Cadillac care. But forget all that, you have an agenda while Gibbs and the WHO are just passing along untilted data.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[utgibbs]

The "agenda" BPV happens to be embraced by the majority of Americans and the world.

It also happens those who have a single payer system get better care for less money.

Y'all have CLEARLY outlined your agenda though. CLEARLY. Ideology > the Enlightenment.

Fortunately, the evidence is in. Y'all stand in a superminority of global cultural opinion, including here in the US.

Oh yeah, the doctors are in too: Physicians for a National Health Program

US doctors support universal health care - survey | Reuters

Hey, part of me actually admirers you guys for getting in your corner and holding out. Unfortunately, the data from the real world is always going to win.

 

[utgibbs]

Govt has made the industry anything but a marketplace. It's a bunch localized monopolies, jacked up by our mentality toward Cadillac care. But forget all that, you have an agenda while Gibbs and the WHO are just passing along untilted data.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

Government is REQUIRED to make a market. :facepalm:

However, the current system is torqued up, absolutely. It's torqued up because THE MARKET IS NOT EFFICIENT IN DELIVERING VITAL SERVICES.

We've known this for at least 200 years like when we had a private fire service.

Y'all are fundamentalists, and your agenda is very clear. Fortunately, you constitute a superminority of world opinion - both informed and uninformed as the case is. Fortunately, the real world always, always wins.

 

[MG1968]

Student who conned his way into Harvard says sorry | World news | The Guardian

In the end, Adam Wheeler, a 24-year-old who conned his way into Harvard and benefited from more than $40,000 (£26,000) in grants and prizes, flew too close to the sun. Not content with having bragged his way into one of the world's most prestigious universities, he felt driven to apply – equally fraudulently – for Rhodes and Fulbright scholarships.

The application was a deception too far, and led to the discovery of a string of lies that this week earned Wheeler 10 years on probation and the order to repay Harvard $45,806. He pleaded guilty to all 20 counts against him, including larceny, identity fraud and pretending to hold a degree.

if a numbnuts like Wheeler can do it, I wonder what it says about someone who has claimed to have attended Harvard but won't produce any transcripts.

 

[volinbham]

The "agenda" BPV happens to be embraced by the majority of Americans and the world.

It also happens those who have a single payer system get better care for less money.

Y'all have CLEARLY outlined your agenda though. CLEARLY. Ideology > the Enlightenment.

Fortunately, the evidence is in. Y'all stand in a superminority of global cultural opinion, including here in the US.

Oh yeah, the doctors are in too: Physicians for a National Health Program

US doctors support universal health care - survey | Reuters

Hey, part of me actually admirers you guys for getting in your corner and holding out. Unfortunately, the data from the real world is always going to win.

I noticed you completely ignored the recent Gallup poll data I posted that refutes your view of the publics opinion of govt HC.

Some info on the doctors' perspective:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/11/us/politics/11health.html

Trendspotter: Doctors Debate the Right to Healthcare - Physicians Practice

Doctors on Coverage ? Physicians’ Views on a New Public Insurance Option and MedicareExpansion Figure 1: Physicians' Support of Options for Expanding Insurance Coverage and Medicare. ? Health Policy and Reform

I'm sure your open-minded reading of these few sources will show:

1. there is considerable debate RE: government HC.
2. there is strong support for a private insurance model of HC.
3. there is very limited support for a single payer (government) HC.

 

[MG1968]

VBH, your pathetic sources pale in comparison to the enlightened opinion of the socialist utopias of Europe, Cuba and North Korea.

 

[kptvol]

Oh yeah, the doctors are in too: Physicians for a National Health Program

I've yet to meet one. Of course, all I do is work in a hospital.

 

[MG1968]

I've yet to meet one. Of course, all I do is work in a hospital.

gibbs is in academia, his opinion cannot be contradicted by your facts.

 

[gsvol]

 

[BeecherVol]

Government is REQUIRED to make a market. :facepalm:

However, the current system is torqued up, absolutely. It's torqued up because THE MARKET IS NOT EFFICIENT IN DELIVERING VITAL SERVICES.

We've known this for at least 200 years like when we had a private fire service.

Y'all are fundamentalists, and your agenda is very clear. Fortunately, you constitute a superminority of world opinion - both informed and uninformed as the case is. Fortunately, the real world always, always wins.

I lose sleep over this.

 

[BeecherVol]

I noticed you completely ignored the recent Gallup poll data I posted that refutes your view of the publics opinion of govt HC.

Some info on the doctors' perspective:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/11/us/politics/11health.html

Trendspotter: Doctors Debate the Right to Healthcare - Physicians Practice

Doctors on Coverage ? Physicians’ Views on a New Public Insurance Option and MedicareExpansion Figure 1: Physicians' Support of Options for Expanding Insurance Coverage and Medicare. ? Health Policy and Reform

I'm sure your open-minded reading of these few sources will show:

1. there is considerable debate RE: government HC.
2. there is strong support for a private insurance model of HC.
3. there is very limited support for a single payer (government) HC.

Did you research the "worlds opinion" on this.

 

[Pepe_Silvia]

While we're on the subject, I believe I have the right to a 2011 Chevy Camaro SS - provided by the tax payers, of course.

 

[utgibbs]

1. there is considerable debate RE: government HC.
2. there is strong support for a private insurance model of HC.
3. there is very limited support for a single payer (government) HC.

Thanks for proving my points for me. I don't really need it, but :hi:

As I've said, when given the facts, a supermajority of Americans believe in universal, single-payer system.

What you witness in the Gallup Poll is the scientific effect of marketing surrounding the (bad) Obama Health Care bill. After mobilizing sufficient marketing and inundating the air waves with bad information which I have clearly proven as false the insurance lobby has managed to make it 50/50 in the US in a single Gallup poll. However ->

Healthcare System

A rich vein of Gallup data here. Demonstrates how "unauthentic" our democracy (sic) is. And proves my points.


Poll: Majority Would Pay Higher Taxes For Universal Health Care - Political Hotsheet - CBS News

This was interesting: tracked voting and polls in several districts with "single-payer" initiative on the ballot: another overwhelming majority, most extending to supermajority (links included):

Single-Payer Poll, Survey, and Initiative Results

The data continues to stack against you. Doctors want it; the people want it; the only people who don't want it are the folks who make it inefficient in the first place.

Surely, with your open mind, you will conclude:

1. The facts demonstrate the single payer system is more efficient, provides better care according to a plethora of relevant metrics.

2. There is almost universal support for universal health care.

3. Although the marketing against a (bad) Obama bill has been effective, the results are temporary, with a supermajority of Americans in favor of a single payer system in all but a few polling instances.

4. Health care is a human right.

 

[volinbham]

Thanks for proving my points for me. I don't really need it, but :hi:

As I've said, when given the facts, a supermajority of Americans believe in universal, single-payer system.

What you witness in the Gallup Poll is the scientific effect of marketing surrounding the (bad) Obama Health Care bill. After mobilizing sufficient marketing and inundating the air waves with bad information which I have clearly proven as false the insurance lobby has managed to make it 50/50 in the US in a single Gallup poll. However ->

Healthcare System

A rich vein of Gallup data here. Demonstrates how "unauthentic" our democracy (sic) is. And proves my points.


Poll: Majority Would Pay Higher Taxes For Universal Health Care - Political Hotsheet - CBS News

This was interesting: tracked voting and polls in several districts with "single-payer" initiative on the ballot: another overwhelming majority, most extending to supermajority (links included):

Single-Payer Poll, Survey, and Initiative Results

The data continues to stack against you. Doctors want it; the people want it; the only people who don't want it are the folks who make it inefficient in the first place.

Surely, with your open mind, you will conclude:

1. The facts demonstrate the single payer system is more efficient, provides better care according to a plethora of relevant metrics.

2. There is almost universal support for universal health care.

3. Although the marketing against a (bad) Obama bill has been effective, the results are temporary, with a supermajority of Americans in favor of a single payer system in all but a few polling instances.

4. Health care is a human right.

Oh I see, Americans were duped right? The most recent poll (the one I posted) is wrong because it doesn't jive with your data.

Could it be the HC debate illuminated the issues and focused people? Nah, it was propaganda that made them abandon their core beliefs temporarily.

I'm sure the Western PA Coalition for National Healthcare carefully compiled ALL polls on the matter.