Obama's Health Care Reform

#26
#26
Some interesting snippets from the BusinessWeek article...

That's not to say the French have solved all health-care riddles. Like every other nation, France is wrestling with runaway health-care inflation. That has led to some hefty tax hikes, and France is now considering U.S.-style health-maintenance organization tactics to rein in costs.
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Apparently European enlightenment has its limits.

So far France has been able to hold down the burden on patients through a combination of price controls and increased government spending, but the latter effort has led to higher taxes for both employers and workers. In 1990, 7% of health-care expenditures were financed out of general revenue taxes, and the rest came from mandatory payroll taxes. By 2003, the general revenue figure had grown to 40%, and it's still not enough. The French national insurance system has been running constant deficits since 1985 and has ballooned to $13.5 billion.
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The debate is over. I'm sold. This is what I want.
 
#27
#27
orangeblooded2 said:
Bottom line, I'm for health care period.

This situation has been unfolding for a generation+.It should have and could have been a done deal years ago,if American companies weren't so selfishly greedy.
If it fails then we can tweak it as we go.
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I agree that it sounds good in theory. My main problem (just after the little research I have done today) would be the question of what happens to those who make poor lifestyle choices. Someone that is in and out of the hospital because they smoke, are alcoholics, or obese. People's tax dollars should not have to pay for that. I have not found any legitimate argument for how universal health care would handle that problem.

And "tweak it as it goes" is a terrible situation to get into. Funny that you said that too because Obama has said that he will find out how to pay for it as we go as well.
 
#28
#28
joevol320 said:
you are so clueless, you need to stop reading the moveon.orgs BS and try to open your eyes. to say or imply that America doesn't have the best healthcare is just insane. are you sure you're an American? do you have a job that actually benefits a company?
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You forget I read you bull on a daily bases.Coming from someone who is by definition suffers from a psychosis relative to paranoia.To question ones patriotism based on a disagreement of policy is asinine in and of its self.

P.S. thanks for the new web site it looks informative.
 
#29
#29
orangeblooded2 said:
You forget I read you bull on a daily bases.Coming from someone who is by definition suffers from a psychosis relative to paranoia.To question ones patriotism based on a disagree of policy is asinine in and of its self.

P.S. thanks for the new web site it looks informative.
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harrumph.
 
#30
#30
vols4sure said:
I agree that it sounds good in theory. My main problem (just after the little research I have done today) would be the question of what happens to those who make poor lifestyle choices. Someone that is in and out of the hospital because they smoke, are alcoholics, or obese. People's tax dollars should not have to pay for that. I have not found any legitimate argument for how universal health care would handle that problem.

And "tweak it as it goes" is a terrible situation to get into. Funny that you said that too because Obama has said that he will find out how to pay for it as we go as well.
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Tweaking it as we go is a time honored American tradition.Government itself as an example.
 
#39
#39
Health care rankings are calculated by the highest amount spent per citizen. If that is how you define good health care, great.

But since wealthy French, Canadians, and English come here to get treatment for various ailments, draw your own conclusions.

Here is how I see it without any political BS:

Our system has the highest level of health care available, if you can get access to it. Some can't. Most can. The main shortcoming of our system is people try and save money ( or don't have money) by skimping on preventative health care, which can cause the tough stories you hear from time to time. When it comes to critical health care, we are superior to national systems whether you have money or not.

Nationalized systems are inverse to that. The preventative care is widely used, although waiting times and the like are excessive. But when it comes to critical care, you may be squeezed out based on success vs. cost type issues, or because of back ups in the system. Also, excelling in one's field is more academic than financially lucrative, which does effect medical professionals' drive.

There it is. I am sure some will disagree, but that is how I see it. Neither system is utopian.
 
#40
#40
Here is a sweet little tidbit on socialized French health care.

France Heat Wave Death Toll at 15,000

The government on Monday released a report blaming the deaths on hospital understaffing, bureaucratic delays and insufficient care for the elderly.

From another source;

In France, authorities placed part of the blame on inadequate care for the elderly and absence of medical personnel in August, a traditional vacation period when residents leave cities and doctors are hard to find.
 
#41
#41
Those that are against healthcare reform fall into two buckets: 1) Are clueless about helathcare and 2) are benefitting from the current system.

Bottom line, healthcare is slowly bankrupting our country. You spend more time researching a TV purchase than the services your doctor performs. You're mad if you go to your PCP and he doesn't order an expensive test or prescribe a pill you saw on TV.

Healthcare is the last major industry where the provider drives the cost. There is a major problem that we don't have patient-focused care - you currently pay through your nose for doctor-focused care.

There is so much money on the table just if we make the system more efficient. The healthcare industry is so antequated, my local grease monkey garage is more efficient.

Those that drive fear of "socialized healthcare" really have the wrong idea. We can not continue as a nation to have the current healthcare system. Changing that system is the only option - and updating the system and regulating the system is a no-brainer.

Most of the people on this sight would have no healthcare coverage in 20 years with the current system. This is the first time in the history of the world when 4 generations are in the workplace together. This is a huge strain on the group insurance system - and will only get worse.
 
#42
#42
UT IE 95 said:
Those that are against healthcare reform fall into two buckets: 1) Are clueless about helathcare and 2) are benefitting from the current system.

Bottom line, healthcare is slowly bankrupting our country. You spend more time researching a TV purchase than the services your doctor performs. You're mad if you go to your PCP and he doesn't order an expensive test or prescribe a pill you saw on TV.

Healthcare is the last major industry where the provider drives the cost. There is a major problem that we don't have patient-focused care - you currently pay through your nose for doctor-focused care.

There is so much money on the table just if we make the system more efficient. The healthcare industry is so antequated, my local grease monkey garage is more efficient.

Those that drive fear of "socialized healthcare" really have the wrong idea. We can not continue as a nation to have the current healthcare system. Changing that system is the only option - and updating the system and regulating the system is a no-brainer.

Most of the people on this sight would have no healthcare coverage in 20 years with the current system. This is the first time in the history of the world when 4 generations are in the workplace together. This is a huge strain on the group insurance system - and will only get worse.
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I would fall into a third category: I would benefit from it, but realize that the country as a whole would suffer because of it in the long term.

So are you saying you want to speed up the bankrupting of our country? That's what it will do if we implement socialized health care.
 
#43
#43
KB5252 said:
I would fall into a third category: I would benefit from it, but realize that the country as a whole would suffer because of it in the long term.

So are you saying you want to speed up the bankrupting of our country? That's what it will do if we implement socialized health care.
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That's the problem with a lot of the loonie far rights on this board. It's not a socialization of healthcare. It's fixing what's wrong and making it better for those that have coverage now. If he can pull it off, it'll be a win-win.

The wacky right needs something to complain about so you'll hear them use terms like "socialist" and such.
 
#44
#44
UT IE 95 said:
That's the problem with a lot of the loonie far rights on this board. It's not a socialization of healthcare. It's fixing what's wrong and making it better for those that have coverage now. If he can pull it off, it'll be a win-win.

The wacky right needs something to complain about so you'll hear them use terms like "socialist" and such.
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Hold up here. It's loony to call it socialization, yet it's going to cost a trillion dollars of taxpayer money.

Did I miss something? Maybe this will attract better docs and more pharma capital. Bet those guys are all pumped.

Finally, if you think the providers are diving pricing as much as the payors, you have lost your mind.
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#46
#46
BigPapaVol said:
Hold up here. It's loony to call it socialization, yet it's going to cost a trillion dollars of taxpayer money.

Did I miss something? Maybe this will attract better docs and more pharma capital. Bet those guys are all pumped.

Finally, if you think the providers are diving pricing as much as the payors, you have lost your mind.
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How much do you think health care costs the taxpayer today?

Health care is already nationalized - calling what the new administration is doing "socialist" is looking for something to complain about.

Payors have no price control. If you go to the doctor, you pay what they say - no question asked. If you get a second opinion, you are getting it for the diagnosis, not the cost of treatment.
 
#47
#47
UT IE 95 said:
How much do you think health care costs the taxpayer today?

Health care is already nationalized - calling what the new administration is doing "socialist" is looking for something to complain about.

Payors have no price control. If you go to the doctor, you pay what they say - no question asked. If you get a second opinion, you are getting it for the diagnosis, not the cost of treatment.
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It is? Last time I checked my health care bills seem to get paid via my checking account. Can you send me those forms you have?
 
#48
#48
allvol123 said:
It is? Last time I checked my health care bills seem to get paid via my checking account. Can you send me those forms you have?
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I should have worded that differently. About half of the total health care costs in this country are nationalized.
 
#49
#49
UT IE 95 said:
How much do you think health care costs the taxpayer today?

Health care is already nationalized - calling what the new administration is doing "socialist" is looking for something to complain about.

Payors have no price control. If you go to the doctor, you pay what they say - no question asked. If you get a second opinion, you are getting it for the diagnosis, not the cost of treatment.
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It's really idiotic to pretend Payors have no price control.
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#50
#50
BigPapaVol said:
It's really idiotic to pretend Payors have no price control.
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How so. You negotiate? The only choice you have: Pay it, or not.

And it's getting out of control that if you are on the paying side - you get billed more to cover the loss from the non-payers.
 
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