Official Statement Confirms Detonations on 9/11

#151
#151
OneManGang said:
There is an axiom in my sig line below that "the difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits."

The subject of this thread proves it.

ANYBODY that buys into the "9/11 was an conspiracy by the government to (insert nefarious plot of your choice)" line of hogwash will improve the median IQ of this country by 20 points upon their demise.

Das ist alles.
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Thank you.
 
#152
#152
Have you people lost your minds or have you just lost the will to look into the events yourself without relying on NIST, 911 Commission, mainstream media, the Bush admin or Popular Mechanics? It makes me sick to my stomach to watch sensible people falling into a recalcitrant-esque state (some even laugh!) when confronted with a conflicting view. Ever since 911, we have seen freedom and the Constitution undermined via unnecessary expedients like the Patriot Act, Military Commissions Act, HR 2640, HR 1955, S 2084, SB 1959, HR 6166, Rex 84, UN Sea Treaty, HCR 1043, RFIDs, etc. The method is called gradualism. Why aren’t people outraged? Simply because of the same reason that George Bush and Dick Cheney will not answer questions regarding 911 under oath. For the same reason that the mainstream media refuses to take whistle-blower Sibel Edmonds up on her offer of a 1-hour, non-edited, television appearance. In a nutshell, the reason is there are no talking stages willing to allow dissidents speaking out how are system is corrupt. People need to know that the interests of our government, congress, and many U.S. entities is not representative of the American public. Another reason is the mainstream media. Willingly or not, they have become accomplices by not reporting what they should be reporting, and not investigating what they should be investigating. I don’t mean to come off as an ass hole with what I’ve stated, but I’m concerned with the general consensus you all carry.

Here me out now. I really hope, for your sake, that you don’t believe I’m in this to “grind my own political axe.” In your eyes, I’m just a 17 year old kid who has become disillusioned with “how things really are”. Be honest, I’m right, aren’t I? It’s far from the case! Please know that I am persisting the discussion on so you all become more aware that the potentiality of 911 being an “inside job” is realistic and entirely possible. REAL WORLD, people, not just an illusion the “conspiracy theorists” made up so others would be “duped” into believing the worst out of the U.S. government. I can’t make myself much clearer on the importance of the discrepancies surrounding 911. I would rather not believe the theory myself, but when I make statements like “evidence points towards 911 being an “inside job””, that is a legitimate statement backed by my own research and it is a view which is held by millions of educated, tax paying Americans (including family members of lost ones!), too. It’s time to wake up and take a hard look at the evidence. If you’re not a skeptic, then you either suffer from cognitive dissonance or you just digress from looking into the details because you see all the “kooks” or disillusioned maniacs associated with the theory. That’s just my opinion, mind you. Maybe you can even provide some vital, pertinent information on the topic and change my stance. I would love for my mind to be put at ease! Honestly, though, I cannot fathom how a person goes on accepting the official account as the truth after thoroughly viewing all the bizarre mishaps, coincidences, and details which incircle damn near every aspect of the official account.

Again, it’s time to wake up and learn why millions of people, Americans and foreigners alike, are extremely skeptical about the official account of what happened that day.

Let me get square with you all. I know what the majority think. It is believed that our government is just not capable or that they would NEVER orchestrate something as despicable as 911. Well, let’s just recap all the vile things this administration has “accomplished”. For one, we’ve been led into war with “evidence” that was fabricated and because of this, hundreds of thousands of lives have been lost. 2. Just watch, it’s short and to the point: visibility911.com » Blog Archive » Hey Glenn Beck... While viewing, keep in mind that the Bush admin has racked up more debt than ALL of the COMBINED U.S. presidents... ever. That deserves an echo. The current amount of debt the Bush admin. has racked up exceeds the COMBINED debt of all the previous presidents of the United States. Red flag, anyone? Just for a minute, think of all the bad things this administration - this government for that matter - has done to innocent civilians, domestic and abroad. Now think of the level of “coincidence” required for all of the “coincidences” to be what they’re perceived to be, only mere coincidences (fireproof bandannas and passports, anyone?). Now ask yourself if you believe a false-flag operation is still out of the realm of possibility. Is it really “too hard to be true”? I want to know what you all think.
 
#155
#155
Volunteer_Kirby said:
I’ve skimmed through a few pieces on debunking911 and was not pleased. The Zogby Poll and the Osama pieces were poorly written. I’ll still continue to look through the sites, though, I wish you would personally rebut my claims.
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Not surprised you are not pleased since there are numerous alternatives presented to your theories.

As for rebutting, I can no more rebut your claims than you can mine. We each are relying on other's studies/opinions and commentaries to bolster an argument.

I consider the burden of proof to be on you and so far I am not convinced - I've explained why over and over.

You can believe what you like (obviously) but your posts have done nothing to change my mind. Your arguments are often problematic since they assume motivations by some (official story) while rejecting the same potential motivations by those that see it your way.

P.S. Even the cellphone link you provided shows calls can be made from airplanes.
 
#156
#156
bham, I understand that cell phone calls can be made. The likelihood of 13 cell phone calls taking place on-board the aircraft at such high altitudes is preposterous! To even think that the cell phone calls could have been made over 10k altitude is even absurd, yet it becomes ever the more outrageous when considering that multiple cell phone call were made @ 30k feet (the cruising altitude). Keep in mind, this experiment took place on a slow-moving light aircraft. Also note that Flight 93 would have had to pass through many more cellsites than the slow-moving aircract. This makes the probability of 13 completed cell phones extremely unlikely.


altitude / probability of cellphone call getting through
4,000 / 0.400
8,000 / 0.100
12,000 / 0.040
16,000 / 0.025
20,000 / 0.016
24,000 / 0.011
28,000 / 0.008
32,000 / 0.006

This is common sense!
 
#157
#157
As for rebutting, I can no more rebut your claims than you can mine.
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What's your discrepancy with the claim of hi-jackers being alive and the cell phones? Are there are other concerns you raised which I failed to rebut?
 
#159
#159
The young socialists thinks of himself as a prophet with a message.

The problem is all of the other young socialists who had simliar stories for the past 50 years are running the country.
 
#160
#160
Volunteer_Kirby said:
bham, I understand that cell phone calls can be made. The likelihood of 13 cell phone calls taking place on-board the aircraft at such high altitudes is preposterous! To even think that the cell phone calls could have been made over 10k altitude is even absurd, yet it becomes ever the more outrageous when considering that multiple cell phone call were made @ 30k feet (the cruising altitude). Keep in mind, this experiment took place on a slow-moving light aircraft. Also note that Flight 93 would have had to pass through many more cellsites than the slow-moving aircract. This makes the probability of 13 completed cell phones extremely unlikely.


altitude / probability of cellphone call getting through
4,000 / 0.400
8,000 / 0.100
12,000 / 0.040
16,000 / 0.025
20,000 / 0.016
24,000 / 0.011
28,000 / 0.008
32,000 / 0.006

This is common sense!
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Did you read this?

Cell phones - Debunk911myths

Of course it doesn't prove anything but neither does the experiment you quoted since they both posit differing conditions.

As for the hijackers - try this:

Hijackers - Debunk911myths

Once again, not conclusive proof but both instances raise enough doubt about these "smoking guns" of cellphones and hijackers.

Do more than "skim" the debunking sites and you'll see that pretty much all the "smoking gun" stuff (eg. squibs, thermite, etc.) have plausible alternative explanations. Further, they demonstrate how quotes are taken out of context and "experts" are not supported by actual experts.

Finally, this is the last tit-for-tat I'll engage in with you. This thread started with an audacious claim that in fact is very weak -- just like all the other loose connections/facts that are used to piece this fantasy together.
 
#162
#162
503333~Conspiracy-Theory-Posters.jpg
 
#163
#163
volinbham said:
Did you read this?

Cell phones - Debunk911myths

Of course it doesn't prove anything but neither does the experiment you quoted since they both posit differing conditions.

As for the hijackers - try this:

Hijackers - Debunk911myths

Once again, not conclusive proof but both instances raise enough doubt about these "smoking guns" of cellphones and hijackers.

Do more than "skim" the debunking sites and you'll see that pretty much all the "smoking gun" stuff (eg. squibs, thermite, etc.) have plausible alternative explanations. Further, they demonstrate how quotes are taken out of context and "experts" are not supported by actual experts.

Finally, this is the last tit-for-tat I'll engage in with you. This thread started with an audacious claim that in fact is very weak -- just like all the other loose connections/facts that are used to piece this fantasy together.
Click to expand...


Listen, bham, there is a reason for me discrediting the website your cited. It's not because they "refute" my claims, but because they present mis-leading information. For instance, in the Cell Phones link, it's clear what they fail to mention. Also, the hi-jackers link provides nothing to refute the fact that phony IDs were used (CNN). The hi-jackers WERE NOT the same as the one's on their phony IDs. According to the FBI and MSM (they use the ID names), 6 of the "hi-jackers" are still alive. What's so hard to grasp about that? Look at how misleading this claim is:

Theory

9/11 conspiracy theories often assert that cell phones do not work on airplanes, and the cell phone calls from Ed Felt and CeeCee Lyles couldn't have happened.




That's TWO of the THIRTEEN cell phone calls made that day. If that's their point, that phone call can be made at low altitudes, then I cannot disagree with them. But those were, to my knowledge, the last TWO, so they would have been during the lowest altitude points, thus giving them the greatest chance to complete a cell phone call. I don't doubt that phone calls could have been made under 5k altitude, but I do call blasphemy on anyone who suggests that those cell phones calls could have been made at 30k+ altitude. According to Deena Burnett, to the best of her recollection, the phone call she received was at 9:20.

Take a look at that altitude, bham. Did Tom Burnett really make a phone call at 35,000 feet? Have you lost the will to view the information with an open mind or are you just entirely ignorant?

550px-Ua93altitude.jpg



Now move onto another caller. Just before 9:30 am, a man claiming to be Jeremy Glick called Lyz Glick. 9:30 = 35k altitude. Again. How can anyone suggest this is even remotely possible? The man claiming to be Tom Burnett called Deena Burnett again around 9:30 am. 9:30 = 35k altitude. Todd Beamer to Lisa Jefferson at 9:45 am = approx. 20k altitude. Extremely unlikely. At 9:47 Lorne Lyles's answering machine picked up his wife, CeeCee's call. CeeCee cell call = approx. 20k altitude. When does it reach the point where all cell phone calls, when factored in as a whole, become evident of foul play? Sometime after 9:30, Fred Fiumano received a call from someone claiming to be his friend, Marion Britton. Altitude @ 9:30-35k, 9:35-approx. 37k, 9:40-approx 41k.

Folks, it's time you stop viewing the information on a priori grounds. I don't understand how you all can convince yourselves that all is well, everything is business as usual, when there is a staggering amount of evidence which points to many factions of the U.S. government being complicit in 9/11. There is a reason the information on that website in easily debunkable and mis-leading. It's used as a tool for coincidence theorists to fall-back upon when confronted with the 'other side' of the argument. Don't take everything I say as true, research this information, go the extra mile for this thing and see for yourselves!

Here is an excerpt from page 14 of David Ray Griffin's book "Debunking 9/11 Debunking: An Answer to Popular Mechanics and Other Defenders of the Official Conspiracy Theory:" This is not a fantasy. Wake UP!

____________________________________________________________________

Moreover, if my 9/11 books are nutty, as Cockburn suggests, then people who endorse them must also be nuts. The list of nuts would hence include economist Michel Chossudovsky, former CIA analyst Ray McGovern, British Minister of Parliament Michael Meacher, former Assistant Treasury Secretary Paul Craig Roberts, former Assistant Secretary of Housing Catherine Austin Fitts, journalists Wayne Madsen and Barrie Zwicker, Institute for Policy Studies co-founder Marcus Raskin, former diplomat Peter Dale Scott, international law professors Richard Falk Burns Weston, social philosopher John McMurtry, theologians John B. Cobb, Harvey Cox, Carter Heyward, Catherine Keller, and Rosemary Reuther, ethicists Joseph C. Hough and Douglas Sturm, writer A.L. Kennedy, media critic and professor of culture Mark Crispin Miller, attorney Garry Spence, historians Richard Horsley and Howard Zinn, and the late Rev. William Sloane Coffin, who, after a stint in the CIA, became one of the country's leading preachers and civil rights, anti-war, and anti-nuclear activists.

Futhermore, if anyone who believes the alternative conspiracy theory, rather than the official conspiracy theory, is by definition a nut, then Cockburn would have to sling that label at Philip J. Berg, former deputy attorney general of Pennsylvania; Colonel Robert Bowman, who flew over 100 combat missions in Vietnam and earned a Ph.D. in aeronautics and nuclear engineering before becoming head of the "Star Wars" program during the Ford and Carter administrations; Andreas Von Bulow, formerly state secretary in the German Federal Ministry of Defense, minister of research and technology, and member of parliament, where he served on the intelligence committee; Lt. Col. Steve Butler, formerly vice chancellor for student affairs at the Defense Language Institute in Monterey, California; Guiletto Chiesa, an Italian member of the European parliament; Bill Christison, formerly a national intelligence officer in the CIA and director of its Office of Strategic and Political Analysis; A.K. Dewdney, emeritus professor of mathematics and computer science and long-time columnist for Scientific American; General Leonid Ivashov, formerly chief of staff of the Russian armed forces; Captain Eric H. May, formerly an intelligence officer in the US Army; Colonel George Nelson, formerly an airplane accident investigation expert in the US Air Force; Colonel Ronald D. Ray, a highly decorated Vietnam veteran who became deputy assistant secretary of defense during the Reagan administration; Morgan Reynolds, former director of the Criminal Justice Center at the National Center for Policy Analysis and former chief economist at the Department of Labor; Robert David Steele, who had a 25-year career in intelligence, serving both as a CIA clandestine services case officer and as a US Marine Corps intelligence officer; Captain Russ Wittenberg, a former Air Force fighter pilot with over 100 combat missions, after which he was a commercial airlines pilot for 35 years; Captain Gregory M. Zeigler, former intelligence officer in the US Army; all member of Scholars for 9/11 Truth, Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice, Veterans for 9/11 Truth, Pilots for 9/11 Truth, and S.P.I.N.E.: the Scientific Panel Investigating Nine-Eleven; and most of the college and university professors listed under "Professors Question 9/11" on the Patriots Question 9/11 website.

Would Cockburn really want to suggest that these people are "nuts" with "no conception of evidence," no awareness of "military history," and no grasp of "common sense" and "the real world"? Cockburn's absurd charges are valuable, however, because they illustrate just how far the labeling of people as "conspiracy theorists" can lead otherwise sensible people away from the real world, in which many very intelligent and experienced people, who cannot by the wildest stretch be called "nuts," have concluded on the basis of evidence, that 9/11 was, at least in part, an inside job.
 
#164
#164
volinbham said:
One more site for you VK - it nicely lays out the common tools of the conspiracy theorist.

Of course, it's from Popular Mechanics so it cannot be trusted...

Debunking 9/11 Myths - Conspiracy Theories - James B. Meigs - Book Afterword - Popular Mechanics
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I've read it before. They used the ever mis-leading thesis, antithesis approach. They pick thee arguments presented for a reason, bham. By the way, the main point about the professional golfer was simple and they again, MIS-LEAD the reader into thinking it was presented for some other reason. The reason that incident was brought forward is because at that time NORAD did not need direct confirmation from the President to interact with the target. Months before, Dick Cheney specifically made so "confirmation" had to go through him, rather than the usual procedure. They're dancing around the key points right in front of your eyes, bham. Take a harder look at the 'other side' and research this stuff yourself!
 
#166
#166
OrangeEmpire said:
LOL!

Every thing that you do not agree with is misleading...

I love it!
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Did you even read? What's sad is that all this is being played out in front of your eyes. If you would sttop denouncing the 'conspiracy theory' on a priori grounds, you would be astounded by how strong the 'conspiracy theory' argument is when put side-by-side with the official account. I pity you for finding this humorous.

Regardless... I almost envy you. It must be nice. All is well in the coincidence theorist mind, isn't it? :banghead2:
 
#168
#168
Volunteer_Kirby said:
Did you even read? What's sad is that all this is being played out in front of your eyes. If you would sttop denouncing the 'conspiracy theory' on a priori grounds, you would be astounded by how strong the 'conspiracy theory' argument is when put side-by-side with the official account. I pity you for finding this humorous.

Regardless... I almost envy you. It must be nice. All is well in the coincidence theorist mind, isn't it? :banghead2:
Click to expand...


Why, every thing you post is laughable.

:yes:
 
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