Our national title claims

#27
#27
Oskie Volum said:
Yeah bowl games back in the day weren't a good measure. Even today some of them aren't a good measure of a team.

Think about the '39 Vols only lost was to USC in the Rose Bowl. Yeah measuring a team that had a streak of shut outs like that one did isn't a good measure when its to USC in The Rose Bowl. Imagine traveling as a team to L.A. from Knoxville in 1939?? Many of the star players couldn't make the trip either because of numerous reasons ie working on family farms etc etc.
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It's my understanding that they took a train and CRN let them party the entire trip.
 
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#29
#29
HvilleCommando said:
Losing in a bowl used to not mean anything way back in the day. Bowls were treated as a celebratory kinda thing at the end of the season. It wasn't really seen how it is now.
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Especially since for instance to go to the Rose Bowl. Tennessee players usually played a western team after VOLS had long long long train ride. Huge advantage. Planes in modern era have minimized that.
 
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#30
#30
Obsessedvol said:
So I was looking up our national title claims and I don't think we should claim 3 of the 6. 1967 we lost 2 games and our bowl game, 1951 we lost our bowl game and 1940 we lost our bowl game. Why don't we claim 1914, 1927, 1928 and 1931 when we didn't lose any games? We really should have 7 titles. 1914, 1927, 1928, 1931, 1938, 1950 and 1998. I realize this is a cool story bro thread and some of alabama's claims are even stupider but I just thought it was interesting to see the titles we do claim then the ones we don't. Also, Merry Christmas!
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College football was flawed then just like it is now. We need 64 team playoffs! College Baseball and Basketball have a superior system.
 
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#31
#31
immyaxl said:
College football was flawed then just like it is now. We need 64 team playoffs! College Baseball and Basketball have a superior system.
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i think 16 would be enough. a 64 team bracket would probably have tennessee in the playoff system even this season which seems a bit excessive to me.
 
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#33
#33
I've never thought the 1967 championship should count. But, the older bowls were after the final polls and were simply a celebration. And, many a Vol celebrated too hard before the game. It is hard not to count 1938 and 1939 where the Vols were undefeated, untied, and unscored upon (no one has done this since).
 
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#34
#34
hillsborovol said:
I've never thought the 1967 championship should count. But, the older bowls were after the final polls and were simply a celebration. And, many a Vol celebrated too hard before the game. It is hard not to count 1938 and 1939 where the Vols were undefeated, untied, and unscored upon (no one has done this since).
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Your right I forgot all about them yrs. Thats still hard to believe that we went 2 seasons without getting scored on. Im on board with you now I think I will claim them 2 seasons to. LOL!
 
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#37
#37
Was just about to post about 1939 team. As a fan I claim the 1939 championship too, so that makes 7 titles. UT was unbeaten, untied and better yet...freaking UNSCORED UPON.....that's right didn't give up a point at all, all season.....

The champion was crowed many times before the bowls and often times bowls were not the deciding factor. Just like they aren't today. Every year there are claims that the wrong teams are playing. Just like the other year when Bammer squeaked into the title game and didn't even win the SEC. How the hell do you win a national title but don't win your respective conference's title. That LSU team crapped the bed and didn't even show up in the New Orleans that year. Either that or that took money to lose that game. That was the most pitiful excuse of an effort of a team I've ever seen. Bowl games happening 5-6 weeks after a season often results in a team being flat. LSU was the national champ that year. Beat Bammer at Bammer and won the SEC out right in Atlanta.

At least very least they should have split the title winner between LSU/Bammer.
 
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#38
#38
Do we get to decide, pretty sure its who the AP or whoever decided was #1. Back in the early days it was a big mess which is why they started the BCS. Personally I don't think any school should be able to claim any before there was an actual championship game played but w/e
 
#39
#39
The six national titles claimed by Tennessee are ALL based on awarding bodies recognized by the NCAA. The AP poll did not begin until 1936 and the UPI (Coaches' Poll) did not begin until 1950 (for a list of the final rankings of all polls, see College Football Rankings 1930's). Before the polls became the final arbiter of success, most ranking systems were based on statistical formulas, often established by individual persons and, with respect to the formative period of college football, employed retroactively.

The 1938 Tennessee team was selected national champions by the following entities: Billingsley, Boand, Dunkel, Football Research, Houlgate, Litkenhous, Poling, Sagarin, Sagarin (ELO-Chess). Unfortunately, TCU is "recognized" as national champions simply because they were selected by AP, as well as Helms, National Championship Foundation and Williamson.

Incidentally, it is, indeed, utterly mindboggling that the 1939 Vols were not recognized by a single service as national champions. This is how it broke down for that year:

Cornell: Litkenhous, Sagarin*
Southern California: Dickinson
Texas A&M: AP, Billingsley, Boand, DeVold, Dunkel, Foot ball Research, Helms, Houlgate, National Championship Foundation, Poling, Sagarin (ELO-Chess)*, Williamson
 
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#40
#40
hillsborovol said:
I've never thought the 1967 championship should count. But, the older bowls were after the final polls and were simply a celebration. And, many a Vol celebrated too hard before the game. It is hard not to count 1938 and 1939 where the Vols were undefeated, untied, and unscored upon (no one has done this since).
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By the standards of the day, the 1967 championship was legitimate. It was, however, awarded only by Litkenhous, and 1967 was the last year that the AP selected their national champion before bowl games had been completed.
 
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#41
#41
As difficult as it is to believe, here is the sordid story of how the '39 team actually lost ground in the polls despite shutting out every opponent:

"October 21. #1 Pittsburgh lost to cross-town rival Duquesne, 21-13. In Cleveland, #2 Notre Dame defeated Navy, 14-7. #3 Oklahoma beat Kansas 27-7. #4 Tulane and visiting #14 North Carolina played to a 14-14 tie. #5 Tennessee continued shutting out its opponents, beating #8 Alabama 21-0, and was voted #1 in the next poll. #6 Michigan visited the Windy City and handed the University of Chicago an 85-0 defeat. #9 Texas A&M reached 5-0-0 with a 20-6 win over TCU, and rose to fifth in the next poll. #10 Ohio State won at Minnesota, 23-20.

October 28. #1 Tennessee defeated Mercer, 17-0. In Pittsburgh, #2 Notre Dame edged Carnegie Tech, 7-6. #3 Michigan beat Yale 27-7. #4 Ohio State lost to #7 Cornell, 23-14. #5 Texas A&M beat Baylor 20-0. Nebraska defeated Kansas State in the second televised football game 25–9.

November 4. #1 Tennessee won at #18 LSU, 20-0. #2 Michigan lost at unranked Illinois, 16-7. #3 Cornell beat Columbia 13-7. At Yankee Stadium, #4 Notre Dame beat Army 14-0. #5 Texas A&M won at Arkansas 27-0. #7 USC beat #11 Oregon State 19-7 in Portland.

November 11. #1 Tennessee shut out the Citadel, 34-0 #2 Texas A&M defeated #13 SMU 6-2. #3 Notre Dame, victor by one point in previous games, lost at unranked Iowa, 7-6. #4 USC beat Stanford 20-12. #5 Cornell narrowly beat Colgate 14-12. #6 Oklahoma won at Kansas State 13-10.

November 18. #1 Tennessee extended its shutout streak, beating Vanderbilt 13-0. Having outscored its opposition, 186-0, Tennessee had a record of 8-0-0, but fell to second in the poll that followed. #2 Texas A&M won at Rice 19-0, and was #1 in the next poll. #3 USC was idle. #4 Cornell won at #20 Dartmouth, 35-6, to stay unbeaten. #5 Oklahoma lost at #12 Missouri, 7-6. #6 Tulane beat Columbia 25-0.

In the next poll, Texas A&M-- which had gotten none of the first place votes the week before—was first, with 38 votes. Tennessee, which had had 66 of the 85 #1 votes the week before, had 33 on the new round of ballots, and finished second. There were 20 for Cornell, and 11 for USC.

November 25 #1 Texas A&M and #2 Tennessee were idle. In Philadelphia, #3 Cornell closed its season with a 26-0 over Penn, to finish unbeaten and untied at 8-0-0. #4 USC won at #7 Notre Dame, 20-12. #5 Tulane beat Sewanee 52-0. In the next round of voting, Texas A&M tied for first place, with 939 points apiece. A&M had more first place votes (27 to 25), but Cornell, with 34 votes, had more. Cornell had 909 points overall.

On Thanksgiving Day, which fell on November 30 in 1939, #1 Texas A&M beat Texas 20-0, to complete an 10-0-0 season, and #4 Tennessee won at Kentucky, 19-0. Two days later, December 2, #1 USC beat Washington 9-7. #5 Tulane beat LSU 33-20.

December 9. #1 Texas A&M had finished its season and accepted a bid to the Sugar Bowl. #2 Tennessee beat Auburn 7-0. #3 USC and #9 UCLA played to a 0-0 tie. #4 Cornell and #5 Tulane had both completed their seasons" (1939 college football season - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).
 
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#44
#44
MyBloodRunnethOrange said:
Alabama claims all of the one displayed on their walls too, and we make fun of them for it. Just sayin.
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And our own fans dispute what the University of Tennessee recognizes....so much so they've proudly displayed it on the surrounding wall of Neyland Stadium overlooking the field. Just saying :dunno:

It is not those historic VFL's faults the country didn't have a full proof system in selecting a champion....I will not discredit what those Vols lived their whole lives being and believing they accomplished.....I'm just saying :dunno:
 
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#47
#47
cgbtn said:
When most of those titles were claimed, the final polls came out at the end of the regular season, and the rankings were not revised after the bowls games. The General considered the bowl trip a reward for seniors and an opportunity for returning players to practice for the next regular season. I assure you that the General's pitiful bowl record would not have been pitiful had he though bowls meant anything.

I remember the 1951 team well, and we have not had a team of that caliber since (1998 included.)
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So teams just left their pride at home and played for the scenery? Why play at all if your coach doesn't care enough to prepare you for a game? I don't buy it.
 
#48
#48
When Neyland assumed the reins of our program in 1926, the Rose Bowl was the only postseason game played annually in the country. The Cotton, Orange, Sugar and Sun Bowls came on line in the 1930s and the Gator and Tangerine (now Capital One) Bowls in the 1940s. Given their recent introduction, their scarcity, and the fact that they did not then impact poll rankings, they were essentially viewed as exhibition games.
 
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#49
#49
Volosaurus rex said:
As difficult as it is to believe, here is the sordid story of how the '39 team actually lost ground in the polls despite shutting out every opponent:

"October 21. #1 Pittsburgh lost to cross-town rival Duquesne, 21-13. In Cleveland, #2 Notre Dame defeated Navy, 14-7. #3 Oklahoma beat Kansas 27-7. #4 Tulane and visiting #14 North Carolina played to a 14-14 tie. #5 Tennessee continued shutting out its opponents, beating #8 Alabama 21-0, and was voted #1 in the next poll. #6 Michigan visited the Windy City and handed the University of Chicago an 85-0 defeat. #9 Texas A&M reached 5-0-0 with a 20-6 win over TCU, and rose to fifth in the next poll. #10 Ohio State won at Minnesota, 23-20.

October 28. #1 Tennessee defeated Mercer, 17-0. In Pittsburgh, #2 Notre Dame edged Carnegie Tech, 7-6. #3 Michigan beat Yale 27-7. #4 Ohio State lost to #7 Cornell, 23-14. #5 Texas A&M beat Baylor 20-0. Nebraska defeated Kansas State in the second televised football game 25–9.

November 4. #1 Tennessee won at #18 LSU, 20-0. #2 Michigan lost at unranked Illinois, 16-7. #3 Cornell beat Columbia 13-7. At Yankee Stadium, #4 Notre Dame beat Army 14-0. #5 Texas A&M won at Arkansas 27-0. #7 USC beat #11 Oregon State 19-7 in Portland.

November 11. #1 Tennessee shut out the Citadel, 34-0 #2 Texas A&M defeated #13 SMU 6-2. #3 Notre Dame, victor by one point in previous games, lost at unranked Iowa, 7-6. #4 USC beat Stanford 20-12. #5 Cornell narrowly beat Colgate 14-12. #6 Oklahoma won at Kansas State 13-10.

November 18. #1 Tennessee extended its shutout streak, beating Vanderbilt 13-0. Having outscored its opposition, 186-0, Tennessee had a record of 8-0-0, but fell to second in the poll that followed. #2 Texas A&M won at Rice 19-0, and was #1 in the next poll. #3 USC was idle. #4 Cornell won at #20 Dartmouth, 35-6, to stay unbeaten. #5 Oklahoma lost at #12 Missouri, 7-6. #6 Tulane beat Columbia 25-0.

In the next poll, Texas A&M-- which had gotten none of the first place votes the week before—was first, with 38 votes. Tennessee, which had had 66 of the 85 #1 votes the week before, had 33 on the new round of ballots, and finished second. There were 20 for Cornell, and 11 for USC.

November 25 #1 Texas A&M and #2 Tennessee were idle. In Philadelphia, #3 Cornell closed its season with a 26-0 over Penn, to finish unbeaten and untied at 8-0-0. #4 USC won at #7 Notre Dame, 20-12. #5 Tulane beat Sewanee 52-0. In the next round of voting, Texas A&M tied for first place, with 939 points apiece. A&M had more first place votes (27 to 25), but Cornell, with 34 votes, had more. Cornell had 909 points overall.

On Thanksgiving Day, which fell on November 30 in 1939, #1 Texas A&M beat Texas 20-0, to complete an 10-0-0 season, and #4 Tennessee won at Kentucky, 19-0. Two days later, December 2, #1 USC beat Washington 9-7. #5 Tulane beat LSU 33-20.

December 9. #1 Texas A&M had finished its season and accepted a bid to the Sugar Bowl. #2 Tennessee beat Auburn 7-0. #3 USC and #9 UCLA played to a 0-0 tie. #4 Cornell and #5 Tulane had both completed their seasons" (1939 college football season - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).
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But none of the teams we played finished regular season ranked, and only one (Kentucky) finished above .500. Granted, unscored upon at season end is impressive but just looking at rankings on game day leaves a lot out.
 
#50
#50
NCFisher said:
But none of the teams we played finished regular season ranked, and only one (Kentucky) finished above .500. Granted, unscored upon at season end is impressive but just looking at rankings on game day leaves a lot out.
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If you don't see an inequity in the fact that Texas A & M went from zero first-place votes one week to 38 the next week, based on a 19-0 victory over an eventual 1-9-1 Rice team, at the same time that we defeated Vanderbilt 13-0, I can only say that we will agree to disagree.
 
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