Patrick J. Buchanan

#51
#51
Rasputin_Vol said:
How much more of this does Trump have to do? I mean seriously... Can we move on to actual real criticisms of Trump and not this old playbook media fabrication?
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Buchanan was on Fox last night talking about Trump and these situations. Made some good points.
 
#53
#53
Buchanan: Were The Wars Wise? Were They Worth It? | ZeroHedge

But the stories could not help but bring questions to mind.

While the service and sacrifice were always honorable and often heroic, never to be forgotten, were the wars these soldiers were sent to fight and die in wise? Were they necessary?

What became of the causes for which these Americans were sent to fight in the new century, with thousands to die and tens of thousands to come home with permanent wounds?

And what became of the causes for which they were sent to fight?
 
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#54
#54
Some were. Some weren't. Desert Storm to drive Saddam from Kuwait was certainly worth it
 
#60
#60
Sea Ray said:
If you disagree with me, give your take and we can discuss
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The US in the 1980's was able to convince the Saudis to keep oil production high, which had the affect of lowering oil prices. This was done as a way to crush the Soviet Union and cut their revenues. This was one of the major reasons why the Soviets had to give up the arms race because they couldn't build up their military and maintain other domestic functions because of declining oil revenues. At the same time, Iran and Iraq were engaged in a nearly decade long war. At the end of the Iran-Iraq war, Iraq was in need of rebuilding their country and was hoping to get some relief from OPEC to cut production and raise oil prices. The Saudis and other Gulf nations (including Kuwait) were against cutting production. At this point, Saddam turned to the United States and asked for assistance from them to help convince these other OPEC nations (mainly the Saudis) to cut production for a certain amount of time so that Iraq could rebuild. Keep in mind that Saddam turned to the United States at that time because we were allied with Saddam during the Iran/Iraq war. There were also some lingering pains from 70 years earlier with regards to borders and how the Sykes-Picot boundaries were drawn up and whether Kuwait was actually a province of Iraq. What amplified this even more was the belief by Saddam and the Iraqis that the Kuwaitis were directional drilling into known Iraqi reserves.

So unlike what the media and our government would want us to believe, Saddam was not out here ready to take over the Middle East and control the entire oil market. He went in with good faith and turned to the United States to offer a diplomatic solution, since the US had supported Iraq during the Ira/Iraq war and Iraq was now in need of a major rebuilding project. Saddam's main objective was the cutting of OPEC production, with a secondary objective of dealing with Kuwait. Even with Saddam's discussions with April Glaspie, he was fully aware that any aggression aimed at Kuwait may bring a reaction from the US, which is why he discusses this with Glaspie in the days leading up to the August 1990 invasion. You can call it miscommunication or whatever, but in the end Saddam decided to act on invading Kuwait after talks with other OPEC nations apparently went sour after his meeting with Glaspie. The hope was to get OPEC to capitulate and not force him into going to Plan B (invading Kuwait).
 
#61
#61
Rasputin_Vol said:
The US in the 1980's was able to convince the Saudis to keep oil production high, which had the affect of lowering oil prices. This was done as a way to crush the Soviet Union and cut their revenues. This was one of the major reasons why the Soviets had to give up the arms race because they couldn't build up their military and maintain other domestic functions because of declining oil revenues. At the same time, Iran and Iraq were engaged in a nearly decade long war. At the end of the Iran-Iraq war, Iraq was in need of rebuilding their country and was hoping to get some relief from OPEC to cut production and raise oil prices. The Saudis and other Gulf nations (including Kuwait) were against cutting production. At this point, Saddam turned to the United States and asked for assistance from them to help convince these other OPEC nations (mainly the Saudis) to cut production for a certain amount of time so that Iraq could rebuild. Keep in mind that Saddam turned to the United States at that time because we were allied with Saddam during the Iran/Iraq war. There were also some lingering pains from 70 years earlier with regards to borders and how the Sykes-Picot boundaries were drawn up and whether Kuwait was actually a province of Iraq. What amplified this even more was the belief by Saddam and the Iraqis that the Kuwaitis were directional drilling into known Iraqi reserves.

So unlike what the media and our government would want us to believe, Saddam was not out here ready to take over the Middle East and control the entire oil market. He went in with good faith and turned to the United States to offer a diplomatic solution, since the US had supported Iraq during the Ira/Iraq war and Iraq was now in need of a major rebuilding project. Saddam's main objective was the cutting of OPEC production, with a secondary objective of dealing with Kuwait. Even with Saddam's discussions with April Glaspie, he was fully aware that any aggression aimed at Kuwait may bring a reaction from the US, which is why he discusses this with Glaspie in the days leading up to the August 1990 invasion. You can call it miscommunication or whatever, but in the end Saddam decided to act on invading Kuwait after talks with other OPEC nations apparently went sour after his meeting with Glaspie. The hope was to get OPEC to capitulate and not force him into going to Plan B (invading Kuwait).
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Very good historical recap. But you stopped short of answering my question. Because you don't like the price of oil is no reason to invade another country. Saddam showed how unreasonable he was by doing so. In the end, it cost him his regime.

Perhaps in hindsight our country could have handled it better but once he invaded Kuwait, we had to act
 
#62
#62
Sea Ray said:
Very good historical recap. But you stopped short of answering my question. Because you don't like the price of oil is no reason to invade another country. Saddam showed how unreasonable he was by doing so. In the end, it cost him his regime.

Perhaps in hindsight our country could have handled it better but once he invaded Kuwait, we had to act
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I answered your question. He had no ambitions of taking over the Middle east. he only went after Kuwait as a Plan B. There was no way Saddam would have believed that the US would have allowed him to expand into other neighboring countries. And what neighboring countries would he have been able to go to without the US (or Israel) taking action? Saudi Arabia? Jordan? If Saddam was already trying to get a pulse of the situation by asking Glaspie about Kuwait, he knew good and damn well what the consequences would be if he tried any other country in the region.

And BTW, look at all of the chaos that the US created with oil embargos to Japan leading up to WWII, the creation of a failed state in Ukraine in 2014 and now the sanctions threats to Germany over Nordestream 2 from Russia. The US always seems to find a way to throw the weight of its military around when it comes to energy resources anywhere else. But let some guy like Saddam (an ally, BTW) do the same and we crush them.
 
#65
#65
Sea Ray said:
It was definitely our business. Disruption of oil affects our national security.
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Well first off, we have plenty of oil production just in this hemisphere to support our needs. We need to use all of our energy trying to establish our own domestic sources of energy.

Second, this would not have been about disrupting oil. Saddam wanted production cuts, not an embargo.
 
#66
#66
Rasputin_Vol said:
Well first off, we have plenty of oil production just in this hemisphere to support our needs. We need to use all of our energy trying to establish our own domestic sources of energy.

Second, this would not have been about disrupting oil. Saddam wanted production cuts, not an embargo.
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Saddam invading Kuwait was definitely destabilizing the oil market. If the market goes haywire, it affects the price we pay regardless of where it comes from. Simply put: once he was in Kuwait, we could not let him stay. We also had a bunch of countries supporting us. This is not a good example of a war we should not have entered
 
#67
#67
Sea Ray said:
Saddam invading Kuwait was definitely destabilizing the oil market. If the market goes haywire, it affects the price we pay regardless of where it comes from. Simply put: once he was in Kuwait, we could not let him stay. We also had a bunch of countries supporting us. This is not a good example of a war we should not have entered
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And again, if we would focus more on establishing our own energy supplies here in this hemisphere (or more specifically within our country), then what goes on in the ME doesn't affect us.

This all comes back around to us not doing what we need to do here at home.
 
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#69
#69
Rasputin_Vol said:
And again, if we would focus more on establishing our own energy supplies here in this hemisphere (or more specifically within our country), then what goes on in the ME doesn't affect us.

This all come s back around to us not doing what we need to do here at home.
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Should we stop selling our oil to other countries, then? We're currently exporting more than we're importing; why not simply zero sum it out? Then we'd be building a reserve.
 
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#70
#70
Rasputin_Vol said:
And again, if we would focus more on establishing our own energy supplies here in this hemisphere (or more specifically within our country), then what goes on in the ME doesn't affect us.

This all comes back around to us not doing what we need to do here at home.
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What happens in the ME does affect us all. Oil prices are set on a world market. The Saudis flooding the market with oil lowered the price we paid when buying from Venezuela, Texas and Canada
 
#72
#72
If the price of oil goes up because of the instability caused by a rouge nation invading a neighbor, yeah, we should get involved. So it's much more than the price of oil. Such instability in the Middle East can't be tolerated. The good news is, it worked. Saddam went back to Baghdad and things again stabilized. We also have a very friendly nation, Kuwait, in the area.
 
#73
#73
Sea Ray said:
If the price of oil goes up because of the instability caused by a rouge nation invading a neighbor, yeah, we should get involved. So it's much more than the price of oil. Such instability in the Middle East can't be tolerated. The good news is, it worked. Saddam went back to Baghdad and things again stabilized. We also have a very friendly nation, Kuwait, in the area.
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Sea Ray said:
Because you don't like the price of oil is no reason to invade another country.
Click to expand...
 
#74
#74
My goodness this guy must be reading my posts in here...

Buchanan: Are Autocrats Always Adversaries? | ZeroHedge

When did the political systems of 193 nations become the business of the government of the United States? And who elected us Americans to write the moral code for the regimes that rule other lands?
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During the Cold War, we were at times allied with South Korean dictators, Argentine generals, Greek colonels, the shah of Iran, Gen. Augusto Pinochet of Chile, Latin American despots, African kleptocrats and assorted royals across the Middle East.
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#75
#75
Rasputin_Vol said:
Buchanan: Were The Wars Wise? Were They Worth It? | ZeroHedge

But the stories could not help but bring questions to mind.

While the service and sacrifice were always honorable and often heroic, never to be forgotten, were the wars these soldiers were sent to fight and die in wise? Were they necessary?

What became of the causes for which these Americans were sent to fight in the new century, with thousands to die and tens of thousands to come home with permanent wounds?

And what became of the causes for which they were sent to fight?
Click to expand...
Interesting... he wrote this 2 months before the Afghanistan debacle.
 
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