Paul the Apostle

#76
#76
therealUT said:
Right, because if there is a judge and one would rather be judged simply on their deeds than on some irrational belief in ghosts that must make one sad and strange.
Click to expand...


If you are judged on your deeds then you, like everyone else, are in a world of hurt.

Edited for spelling...
 
Last edited:
#80
#80
therealUT said:
I would reject Paul even if I were a Christian. He is ultra-legalistic, which is in direct opposition to the teachings of Christ, Peter, James, and John (the author of Revelations, not the Gospel). Jesus railed against strict rules, because it was too easy to end up worshiping the rule and losing sight of the reason for the rule; yet, Paul continually lays down very strict (and incredibly dumb) rules.

Paul's approach to Christianity is almost the antithesis of the teachings of Jesus.
Click to expand...

Have you ever read Galatians? Romans? Paul preached a gospel of salvation by grace alone thryough faith in Christ. He followed the logic with the expectation that after salvation by faith, a person is reborn into a new creature with a new nature, and thus works should grow out of a response to unmerited grace. Its like this: I make coffee in the morning for my wife, not because I am afraid she will leave me but because I love and respect her.

Paul legalistic? Not if you've ever read the body of his work. As a matter of fact, it was his lack of legalism that had him at odds with the afore mentioned false teachers in the first place.
 
Last edited:
#82
#82
I really should have listened more in Sunday school. But damn Theresa had some nice tits.
 
#87
#87
Orange_Crush said:
Have you ever read Galatians? Romans? Paul preached a gospel of salvation by grace alone through faith in Christ. He followed the logic with the expectation that after salvation by faith, a person is reborn into a new creature with a new nature, and thus works should grow out of a response to unmerited grace. Its like this: I make coffee in the morning for my wife, not because I am afraid she will leave me but because I love and respect her.

Paul legalistic? Not if you've ever read the bodynofnhisnwork. As a matter of fact, it was his lack of legalism that had him at odds with the afore mentioned false teachers in the first place.
Click to expand...

I have read Galatians and Romans; even in Paul's admonition of faith, in which he still goes on to lay down legalistic rules, he is in opposition to the teachings of Jesus from the gospels. Jesus is not in any way legalistic and he is not a "faith" over works guy; he is a guy that says the holy spirit will counsel you on how to act and you had better act on that guidance. Further, Jesus forgives those who do not believe in him; it is one of his last acts upon the cross (Father forgive them for they know not what they do); if faith was crucial to salvation, then Jesus's forgiveness of those individuals (who obviously did not believe he was the Son of God, much less God) would mean absolutely nothing (I forgive you, now go to hell).
 
#88
#88
therealUT said:
I have read Galatians and Romans; even in Paul's admonition of faith, in which he still goes on to lay down legalistic rules, he is in opposition to the teachings of Jesus from the gospels. Jesus is not in any way legalistic and he is not a "faith" over works guy; he is a guy that says the holy spirit will counsel you on how to act and you had better act on that guidance. Further, Jesus forgives those who do not believe in him; it is one of his last acts upon the cross (Father forgive them for they know not what they do); if faith was crucial to salvation, then Jesus's forgiveness of those individuals (who obviously did not believe he was the Son of God, much less God) would mean absolutely nothing (I forgive you, now go to hell).
Click to expand...

Please show me one place where Paul listed legalistic rules to earn salvation. I've seen several places where he listed God's holy standard which the Christian should strive to abide by, seeing how,you know, He's God and all.



Matthew 25:31, 41-46 NASB

"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Signed, Jesus
 
#89
#89
therealUT said:
I have read Galatians and Romans; even in Paul's admonition of faith, in which he still goes on to lay down legalistic rules, he is in opposition to the teachings of Jesus from the gospels. Jesus is not in any way legalistic and he is not a "faith" over works guy; he is a guy that says the holy spirit will counsel you on how to act and you had better act on that guidance. Further, Jesus forgives those who do not believe in him; it is one of his last acts upon the cross (Father forgive them for they know not what they do); if faith was crucial to salvation, then Jesus's forgiveness of those individuals (who obviously did not believe he was the Son of God, much less God) would mean absolutely nothing (I forgive you, now go to hell).
Click to expand...

Ephesians 2:8 NASB

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; -- Paul

Romans 4:5 NASB

But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, -- Paul

Romans 6:1-11 NASB

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.-- Paul


Paul did not preach a salvation of legalism, but a salvation of grace that should result in a changed life, which is exactly what Jesus taught.
 
#90
#90
therealUT said:
I have read Galatians and Romans; even in Paul's admonition of faith, in which he still goes on to lay down legalistic rules, he is in opposition to the teachings of Jesus from the gospels. Jesus is not in any way legalistic and he is not a "faith" over works guy; he is a guy that says the holy spirit will counsel you on how to act and you had better act on that guidance. Further, Jesus forgives those who do not believe in him; it is one of his last acts upon the cross (Father forgive them for they know not what they do); if faith was crucial to salvation, then Jesus's forgiveness of those individuals (who obviously did not believe he was the Son of God, much less God) would mean absolutely nothing (I forgive you, now go to hell).
Click to expand...

John 3:14-21 NASB

As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God." -- Jesus

In opposition to your statement that Jesus will forgive those who do not believe in Him, his statement is that their lack of belief is the very thing that they will be judged on. As quoted, He defined that judgment as eternal, fiery torment.

I guess to summarize my points, Paul taught a salvation of grace for those that believe, and a just judgment of works for those that do not. Jesus taught the same fullnes of doctrine. Paul taught a changed life for those who are saved. Jesus taught the same thing.
 
Last edited:
#91
#91
Orange_Crush said:
John 3:14-21 NASB

As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God." -- Jesus

In opposition to your statement that Jesus will forgive those who do not believe in Him, his statement is that their lack of belief is the very thing that they will be judged on. As quoted, He defined that judgment as eternal, fiery torment.

I guess to summarize my points, Paul taught a salvation of grace for those that believe, and a just judgment of works for those that do not. Jesus taught the same fullnes of doctrine. Paul taught a changed life for those who are saved. Jesus taught the same thing.
Click to expand...


Paul was correct in his teaching. If one is genuinely saved, their life is changed.
 
#92
#92
Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness,

20

idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions,

21

occasions of envy, 15 drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Click to expand...

While Paul says that he is not talking about "The Law" (meaning the Jewish law), statements such as these are certainly legalistic and are peppered throughout his epistles. Meanwhile, Jesus simply says that the spirit will guide you; that nothing that goes in your body can defile; that those are forgiven who do not believe in him (he states this on the cross); that those who are not against him are for him; etc.
 
#93
#93
therealUT said:
Galatians 5:19-21


While Paul says that he is not talking about "The Law" (meaning the Jewish law), statements such as these are certainly legalistic and are peppered throughout his epistles. Meanwhile, Jesus simply says that the spirit will guide you; that nothing that goes in your body can defile; that those are forgiven who do not believe in him (he states this on the cross); that those who are not against him are for him; etc.
Click to expand...

Go read Jesus parable of the wheat and tares. It is the same doctrine that Paul is teaching. It is also the same doctrine that the apostle John teaches...


1 John 1:6-7 NASB

If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

1 John 2:3-6, 15-17 NASB

By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked. Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world. The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.


James 2:17 NASB

Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.


We are saved by grace through faith. Upon salvation we are reborn. When reborn, we are transformed by he power of the Spirit that now indwells us. Good works/lack of bad works is a result of salvation, not the cause of it. However, a life that is not transformed shows that it was not a life of faith, thus not a life into salvation. For instance, I can say all day that I believe in fidelity to my wife. Actions would definitively prove differently. As such, saying that I believe Jesus is lord is proved otherwise when I live like I am the lord of my life.

You can disagree with Paul all you want of course. But to say that he is in disagreement with Jesus and the rest of the apostles is just incorrect.

As for your 'Jesus simply says...' comment, I quoted what Jesus simply said from scripture. You obviously ignored it.
 
#94
#94
therealUT said:
Galatians 5:19-21


While Paul says that he is not talking about "The Law" (meaning the Jewish law), statements such as these are certainly legalistic and are peppered throughout his epistles. Meanwhile, Jesus simply says that the spirit will guide you; that nothing that goes in your body can defile; that those are forgiven who do not believe in him (he states this on the cross); that those who are not against him are for him; etc.
Click to expand...


A few more things Jesus said simply...


Mark 16:16 NASB

He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. -- Jesus

John 3:36 NASB

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." --Jesus

John 7:7 NASB

The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it, that its deeds are evil. --Jesus

Matthew 15:16-20 NASB

Jesus said, "Are you still lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that everything that goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and is eliminated? But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders. These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man."

Would you like to accept what He simply stated, or continue to misquote Him out of context to build a religion of your own making? I'm not trying to be a smart... I simply mean that you shoud either fully accept him or fully deny him. But don't recreate another Jesus just to like him better.
 
#95
#95
Orange_Crush said:
A few more things Jesus said simply...


Mark 16:16 NASB

He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. -- Jesus

John 3:36 NASB

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." --Jesus

John 7:7 NASB

The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it, that its deeds are evil. --Jesus

Matthew 15:16-20 NASB

Jesus said, "Are you still lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that everything that goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and is eliminated? But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders. These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man."

Would you like to accept what He simply stated, or continue to misquote Him out of context to build a religion of your own making? I'm not trying to be a smart... I simply mean that you shoud either fully accept him or fully deny him. But don't recreate another Jesus just to like him better.
Click to expand...

I do not take Jesus out of context, which is why I believe that the Gospel story of Jesus is simply an allegory for reason and truth (Jesus being reason and God being truth). Insofar as I believe that, I think the only "faith in me" that Jesus is speaking of is faith in reason; it is not faith in a single person or in a single God. That is why his statement, in which he forgives individuals who obviously do not believe he is God is so powerful and so contradictory to any other scripture one could cite to try to make Jesus into a "sola fidelis" figure. If he is a "sola fidelis" figure, then his forgiveness of those who do not know that he is God is empty; in fact, it would make Jesus a liar.

If though, the literary character is an allegory representing reason, then no contradiction exists between the statements you have quoted and the forgiveness that figure grants. If he is not, then there is a huge contradiction and one should just discard the entire Gospel story based solely upon that contradiction.
 
#96
#96
therealUT said:
I do not take Jesus out of context, which is why I believe that the Gospel story of Jesus is simply an allegory for reason and truth (Jesus being reason and God being truth). Insofar as I believe that, I think the only "faith in me" that Jesus is speaking of is faith in reason; it is not faith in a single person or in a single God. [That is why his statement, in which he forgives individuals who obviously do not believe he is God is so powerful and so contradictory to any other scripture one could cite to try to make Jesus into a "sola fidelis" figure. If he is a "sola fidelis" figure, then his forgiveness of those who do not know that he is God is empty; in fact, it would make Jesus a liar.

If though, the literary character is an allegory representing reason, then no contradiction exists between the statements you have quoted and the forgiveness that figure grants. If he is not, then there is a huge contradiction and one should just discard the entire Gospel story based solely upon that contradiction.
Click to expand...

Isaiah 53:12 tells us that He made intercession for the transgressors, and the cross is where he began making intercession.

On the cross Jesus was making intercession for sinners who did not actually know what they had done.
Those words, "Father, forgive them," had never been used by Christ in His ministry. Jesus forgave the palsied man when He said, "Son, thy sins be forgiven thee." He told the woman who washed His feet in tears and dried them with her hair, "Thy sins are forgiven." Throughout His life, Jesus forgave men's sins; but on the cross, He prayed for the Father to forgive them.

Jesus prayed, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." Did they receive forgiveness? No. When were they forgiven? On the day of Pentecost, God through the Holy Ghost had Peter put a rebuke on them. He rebuked them in the message openly when he said, "You with wicked hands, crucified the Lord of glory." They cried out, "Men and brethren, what must we do?" then they repented and God forgave them. Jesus prayed, "Father, forgive them," but they were never forgiven until they repented, and neither is anyone else.
 
#97
#97
Ah, the thief passage.

So, are there holding areas for the faithful and unfaithful at death?
 
#98
#98
The Steps to Salvation are simple.

1. ACKNOWLEDGE:
Rom 3:23 (KJV) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

Rom. 6:23 (KJV) For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

2. REPENT:
Acts 3:19 (KJV) Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

1 John 1:9 (KJV) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

3. BELIEVE:
John 3:16 (KJV) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

1 John 5:11, 12 (KJV) And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

4. RECEIVE:
John 1:12 (KJV) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Rev. 3:20 (KJV) Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
 
#100
#100
Gramps said:
Jesus prayed, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." Did they receive forgiveness? No. When were they forgiven? On the day of Pentecost, God through the Holy Ghost had Peter put a rebuke on them. He rebuked them in the message openly when he said, "You with wicked hands, crucified the Lord of glory." They cried out, "Men and brethren, what must we do?" then they repented and God forgave them. Jesus prayed, "Father, forgive them," but they were never forgiven until they repented, and neither is anyone else.
Click to expand...

Jesus does not have the power to forgive sins? Or, Jesus is not one with God?

It is also interesting how it is that Jesus teaches his followers to pray:

Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread;
and forgive us our debts,
as we forgive our debtors,
and do not subject us to the final test,
but deliver us from the evil one.
Click to expand...

Do we take Jesus's advice as to how to prayer (no mention of Jesus or faith, simply the acknowledgment that there is a great God in heaven, the acknowledgement that we have transgressions, and the request that we be forgiven with the same standard that we forgive others), or do we take the advice of later "Christians" and pray to Jesus and put our faith in Faith?

Further, Jesus states very clearly:
Therefore, I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit (conscience) will not be forgiven. And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man (Jesus/reason) will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit (their own conscience) will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Matt. 12:31-32
Click to expand...

Here, one cannot argue that this is "intercession"; rather, Jesus clearly states one will be forgiven for blasphemy against Jesus (i.e., not believing in Jesus) and, more than that, for every single sin that one would commit. The only unforgivable sin, according to this statement, is acting against the dictates of one's own conscience (which is exactly what Aquinas says circa 1256).

How I understand the message of Jesus in the Gospels is:

God is Truth
Jesus is Reason
Nobody can reach Truth without Reason

The Holy Spirit is Conscience
Conscience guides actions
Reason, aimed at Truth, can serve to inform and influence one's Conscience.

If you ever act against your Conscience, you are certainly committing a sin; acting in accord with your Conscience, you might commit a sin, but that sin is forgivable because you were acting according to your Conscience.
 
New posts
You must log in or register to reply here.

VN Store



Back
Top