Politics can be funny

#26
#26
n_huffhines said:
What's your take?
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On abortion I am 100% opposed to the practice and 100% opposed to making it completely illegal. There has to be an end date on when an abortion (save for extreme cases where the mothers life is in danger) can be preformed and no I don't have that but somewhere around 6-8 weeks.

I think local and state governments (the federal government should stay out of it) should be working to make adoption easier and cheaper and promoting that as a alternative to abortion.

I'm not a religious man although I do believe in the creator.
 
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#27
#27
n_huffhines said:
Found this googling history of abortion and conservatism. Article has some biased conclusions, but the facts presented are interesting:

Today, evangelicals make up the backbone of the pro-life movement, but it hasn’t always been so. Both before and for several years after Roe, evangelicals were overwhelmingly indifferent to the subject, which they considered a “Catholic issue.” In 1968, for instance, a symposium sponsored by the Christian Medical Society and Christianity Today, the flagship magazine of evangelicalism, refused to characterize abortion as sinful, citing “individual health, family welfare, and social responsibility” as justifications for ending a pregnancy. In 1971, delegates to the Southern Baptist Convention in St. Louis, Missouri, passed a resolution encouraging “Southern Baptists to work for legislation that will allow the possibility of abortion under such conditions as rape, incest, clear evidence of severe fetal deformity, and carefully ascertained evidence of the likelihood of damage to the emotional, mental, and physical health of the mother.” The convention, hardly a redoubt of liberal values, reaffirmed that position in 1974, one year after Roe, and again in 1976.

When the Roe decision was handed down, W. A. Criswell, the Southern Baptist Convention’s former president and pastor of First Baptist Church in Dallas, Texas—also one of the most famous fundamentalists of the 20th century—was pleased: “I have always felt that it was only after a child was born and had a life separate from its mother that it became an individual person,” he said, “and it has always, therefore, seemed to me that what is best for the mother and for the future should be allowed.”

Although a few evangelical voices, including Christianity Today magazine, mildly criticized the ruling, the overwhelming response was silence, even approval. Baptists, in particular, applauded the decision as an appropriate articulation of the division between church and state, between personal morality and state regulation of individual behavior. “Religious liberty, human equality and justice are advanced by the Supreme Court abortion decision,” wrote W. Barry Garrett of Baptist Press.

The Real Origins of the Religious Right
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That's the direction I was going.

Actual, verifiable quotes.
Documented policy stances and decisions.
Easily traceable timeline.

And it's horse hockey, because it's uncomfortable.
 
#28
#28
hog88 said:
On abortion I am 100% opposed to the practice and 100% opposed to making it completely illegal. There has to be an end date on when an abortion (save for extreme cases where the mothers life is in danger) can be preformed and no I don't have that but somewhere around 6-8 weeks.

I think local and state governments (the federal government should stay out of it) should be working to make adoption easier and cheaper and promoting that as a alternative to abortion.
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I meant on the history of conservatism/the GOP and abortion. I was asking has pro-life always been part of the conservative platform (and if so, why) or did they adopt it at some point (and if so, why).

That article I found (and @AshG ) indicated that it became a major component of right politics after Roe v Wade.
 
#29
#29
n_huffhines said:
I meant on the history of conservatism/the GOP and abortion. I was asking has pro-life always been part of the conservative platform (and if so, why) or did they adopt it at some point (and if so, why).

That article I found (and @AshG ) indicated that it became a major component of right politics after Roe v Wade.
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I have no idea when the GOP adopted it's stance on abortion and you are making the classic mistake of lumping conservatives into the GOP. The GOP is no different than the Dem party, they will adopt whatever stance they think will garner donations and votes.
 
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#32
#32
hog88 said:
I have no idea when the GOP adopted it's stance on abortion and you are making the classic mistake of lumping conservatives into the GOP. The GOP is no different than the Dem party, they will adopt whatever stance they think will garner donations and votes.
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Also from the religious viewpoint, the official position of leadership is not always consistent with the views of all of the believers. As evidenced with the current leader of the Catholic church and the opposing views of many of the other leadership members and followers.
 
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#33
#33
n_huffhines said:
Everybody's hung up on the grammar (which is dumb on VN, but funny as hell in congress) but the other **** MJT said is absolutely disgraceful. She lied about her, called her trash, and "jihad squad" is indefensible.
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Way back when I was a young man, DC elites argued over policy but buddied up after debates.

I prefer disdain and loathing. I hope it leads to gridlock and complete inability to pass new laws, overspend, and buy votes. Likely a pipe dream but a man can dream.
 
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#35
#35
lawgator1 said:
No.

I think the vast, vast majority of people on the right, Republicans or otherwise,are well meaning people who want what is best for their families and their communities.

There is a small contingent that wishes to impose their very narrow view of morality and religion on everyone else because they are convinced that it's best. And there is an even narrower range that takes delight in antagonizing people who are not like them and don't share their views.

She is one of those people.

I wish voters in all communities would stop voting out of spite or just to embrace the extreme trying to offset the other. It's going poorly.
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I live in her district, I did not vote for her in the primary and the democrat drop out of the race before the general election. Not that I would have voted for the democrat
 
#36
#36
McDad said:
Way back when I was a young man, DC elites argued over policy but buddied up after debates.

I prefer disdain and loathing. I hope it leads to gridlock and complete inability to pass new laws, overspend, and buy votes. Likely a pipe dream but a man can dream.
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It won't. It's just going to continue to bleed into society. Everything with national politics is worse than ever. Spending, bloat, partisanship, the media, people on social media, etc. Take me back to the mid 90's (in terms of political climate), please.
 
#37
#37
n_huffhines said:
It won't. It's just going to continue to bleed into society.
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Society as a whole is getting better. Small pockets of society are getting worse and more vocal though.

I don't care about the politician's twitter beefs. They are corrupted people. I don't expect them to be anything but distasteful.
 
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#38
#38
McDad said:
Society as a whole is getting better. Small pockets of society are getting worse and more vocal though.

I don't care about the politician's twitter beefs. They are corrupted people. I don't expect them to be anything but distasteful.
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Society might be getting better, but that's despite politics and it'd be even better if our politicians and the media weren't so nasty.
 
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#39
#39
McDad said:
Society as a whole is getting better. Small pockets of society are getting worse and more vocal though.

I don't care about the politician's twitter beefs. They are corrupted people. I don't expect them to be anything but distasteful.
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In what way do you see society getting better?
 
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#40
#40
n_huffhines said:
Society might be getting better, but that's despite politics and it'd be even better if our politicians and the media weren't so nasty.
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I don't disagree. But I've just accepted who they are. And just like I don't expect the lawyer to be truthful, the addict to be clean, or the prostitute to be chaste, I don't expect politicians to become respectable.
 
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#41
#41
hog88 said:
In what way do you see society getting better?
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I can see a lot of improvements (violence is down, teen sex and drug use down, increased understanding and acceptance of mental health issues, increased emphasis on inclusiveness, anti-bullying, more equality, etc.) and some scary regression (opioid epidemic, race relations, divide between rural/urban America, etc.).
 
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#43
#43
n_huffhines said:
I can see a lot of improvements (violence is down, teen sex and drug use down, increased understanding and acceptance of mental health issues, increased emphasis on inclusiveness, anti-bullying, more equality, etc.) and some scary regression (opioid epidemic, race relations, divide between rural/urban America, etc.).
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I think race relations are better for the 80% of us whose sole identity isn't found in racial strife and disharmony.
 
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#46
#46
n_huffhines said:
Aside: is it actually part of conservative ideology to oppose abortion? I know basically all conservatives oppose abortion, but I'm just wondering has that always philosophically been part of the platform, or did it just happen because religious people were drawn to conservatism?
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Conservativism historically has valued the existing moral code and only supported changes when there was a clear consensus that things needed to change. There has NEVER been a consensus in the Western moral tradition (at least post Sparta) that infanticide or abortion is acceptable. Christianity of course has always abhorred both practices. It never needed to become a part of the written conservative platform until people actually started arguing for the right to do it. Just like neither political party current has a platform plank supporting the butchering of kittens for entertainment, until society degenerates to a point where people want to do that, everyone just sort of agrees that no sane person would want to do that anyway
 
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#48
#48
OrangeTsar said:
Conservativism historically has valued the existing moral code and only supported changes when there was a clear consensus that things needed to change. There has NEVER been a consensus in the Western moral tradition (at least post Sparta) that infanticide or abortion is acceptable. Christianity of course has always abhorred both practices.
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Didn't sound like that was the case based on all those quotes in that Politico article.

It never needed to become a part of the written conservative platform until people actually started arguing for the right to do it. Just like neither political party current has a platform plank supporting the butchering of kittens for entertainment, until society degenerates to a point where people want to do that, everyone just sort of agrees that no sane person would want to do that anyway
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That doesn't add up. 1976 is when it became an official plank in both parties (a few years after Roe v Wade) but 1959 was when people really started arguing for the right to do it.
 
#49
#49
n_huffhines said:
Didn't sound like that was the case based on all those quotes in that Politico article.



That doesn't add up. 1976 is when it became an official plank in both parties (a few years after Roe v Wade) but 1959 was when people really started arguing for the right to do it.
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Adds up perfectly I think. People started arguing in 1959 and it gained more and not adherents until a case eventually went to trial 13 years later establishing a “right” to abortion that then resulted in the need to create a platform plank in the next national election in 1976
 
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