Prop 19 revisited

[zach0105]

You seriously think they would be cheaper if legalized? Apparently, you don't understand capitalism.

All I'm seeing are empty predictions. You don't know if they would be cheaper, you don't know if someone would binge more often, and I'm starting to think you've never been around addicts very much. If you're being this ardent about crack addicts, then you need to petition for alcohol and cigarettes to be controlled.

See my previous post about hurting loved ones and all that jazz. Legalization wouldn't change a damn thing about addicts.

Do you really think the government needs to hold our hand?

OK, you got me on that one. Maybe crack and meth wouldn't be cheaper, but it certainly would be more readily available. And yes, I have been around crack addicts. A married couple that I know that use to be family friends (key word use to) lost their kid, their job, and most of their friends because they were addicted to crack. All they cared about was the next hit they were going to take. So much so, that they ended up moving into their dealers house and doing anything and everything that was asked of them. From cleaning his toilet and other daily tasks all the way to things they didn't want to share with us.

And my argument wasn't about hurting loved ones. I just brought it up because you made the ridiculous statement that the only ones who are hurt are the users. My argument was that there is no possible good that could come out of legalizing crack or meth.

I don't think the government need to hold our hand. I am just stating that some people don't need or deserve free reign and unlimited availability to crack or meth.

Edit: after rereading your post I realized I left out a point I meant to make. I have also been around an alcoholic, my father. It's horrible that the only thing that he cares about is his next case a beer. But I know for a fact that he wouldn't let himself go broke or do crime just for some beer. And I know their are some people who are more severely addicted, but it's not as frequent a number of severe crack addicts.

 

[fl0at]

And FTR, my DoC and 'gateway' wasn't marijuana. I have a lot of friends who were the same way.

Yea, but that is probably because you and most of your friends, at around 16 or so years of age, probably didn't know where to score some pot.

My parents had a liquor cabinet and beer in the fridge. I always knew where to find alcohol.

If they had had a humidor full of weed, my gateway drug might not have been whiskey.

Like you said, availability over all else... legalization creates availability.

I guess we will wait and see. I am sure it becomes legalized in my lifetime, assuming I live a full life.

 

[zach0105]

why not make it 21 just like alcohol?

and I will say that in HS it was much easier to get pot than it was alcohol. I honestly never did it but could have gotten a hold of it any day I wanted.

This I can agree with. But all the arguments I saw on here were arguing for it to be readily available to all consenting adults.

But I could see them legalizing it and making the age 21 could reduce the amount of high-school aged students using it, which would be a positive.

 

[DinkinFlicka]

Yea, but that is probably because you and most of your friends, at around 16 or so years of age, probably didn't know where to score some pot.

My parents had a liquor cabinet and beer in the fridge. I always knew where to find alcohol.

If they had had a humidor full of weed, my gateway drug might not have been whiskey.

Like you said, availability over all else... legalization creates availability.

I guess we will wait and see. I am sure it becomes legalized in my lifetime, assuming I live a full life.

Heh, we knew where to score plenty of grass. It just wasn't my thing at that age. I was more interested in going fast. It wasn't until a couple of years ago I decided coke was doing too big a number on me and I started experimenting with marijuana. Now, it's all I use. Don't get me wrong, there were nights as a teenager when I absolutely couldn't find what I wanted, and I still would turn down some bud. It just wasn't my thing.

No sir... you are missing the point.
You need to pray to God (The one you do not believe in) several times a day that no one you love ever becomes addicted to drugs or alcohol.

It shows your lack of knowledge when you say it only hurts the person using.

What crawled up your ass? That slight to my theological view was rude and unnecessary.

I've known more addicts than you can count to, and more importantly, I've been in those shoes. It had zilch to do with availability and price and everything to do with my lack of moderation. I've lost friends to heroin and cocaine, and I can tell you, every single one of them OD'd because they did it too much, lost the awareness to moderate, and died. The substance was there all along... they just got stupid with it.

OK, you got me on that one. Maybe crack and meth wouldn't be cheaper, but it certainly would be more readily available. And yes, I have been around crack addicts. A married couple that I know that use to be family friends (key word use to) lost their kid, their job, and most of their friends because they were addicted to crack. All they cared about was the next hit they were going to take. So much so, that they ended up moving into their dealers house and doing anything and everything that was asked of them. From cleaning his toilet and other daily tasks all the way to things they didn't want to share with us.

And my argument wasn't about hurting loved ones. I just brought it up because you made the ridiculous statement that the only ones who are hurt are the users. My argument was that there is no possible good that could come out of legalizing crack or meth.

I don't think the government need to hold our hand. I am just stating that some people don't need or deserve free reign and unlimited availability to crack or meth.

I don't think any good has come out of fighting it. People will get what they want whether the government tells them no or not. It's just a shame so much time, effort, and money has been completely wasted on trying to control this mess.

I think violent crimes would see a decrease, and we'd certainly have more in the federal budget, but I'm not saying much good would come out of legalization. I just think it's bullsh*t that the government has to tell a man what he can do to HIMSELF.

There's just less value in trying to fight it. It's really hard to argue otherwise.

And again, when I say hurt, I could care less about families that aren't mine... I'm talking about endangering lives. I'd trust someone who just shoved a half gram of blow up his nose coming down the road at 3 am more than someone who just drank a 12 pack doing the same thing. This ain't Oprah, gentleman. They have AA meetings for people who don't know what self-control is. I'm talking about bodily harm.

 

[Gramps]

Do you think legalizing it would raise those case numbers? You mentioned alcohol... you think that should be illegal? If you're going to play that card, obesity hurts loved ones. Let's outlaw candy and McDonald's!

You're missing the point.

EDIT: Another thing... when I say harm others, I meant physically endanger someone's life... you know, like alcohol does to thousands of people every day? You drink more than 5 beers, you become the most hazardous thing on the road. It's not the government's job to play Dr. Phil and hold our families together. Lack of moderation comes down to the individual, not Uncle Sam dammit.

You are wrong in so many ways.

It's not about moderation... Have you ever thought about how some people can drink, smoke pot, pop a few pills and quit anytime they want to while others doing the same thing ( same ammount) cannot stop and become drug addicts and alcoholics.

Dr Phil, the government nor no other human can hold families together when it comes to drugs and alcohol.

Lack of moderation comes down to the individual...
Go ask a addict or alcholic if they just woke up one morning and said what a beautiful day... I think I will become a drunk or addict today.
Ask them if they are enjoying their lives. Ask them why don't they just quit.

You don't think they harm anyone but themselves..
Ask the family of the drunk driver who ran over someone in their family and killed them.

Ask the family of a clerk at the local market that an addict robbed last night at gunpoint and killed the clerk to get $40 to go get a fix.

Ask the parent of an addict who has to cut the tabs out of their teenagers cloths so they wont return them to the store to get enough money for a pill.

I could go on and on ...

Don't never think for one minute that a drunk or drug addict does not hurt no one but themselves.
If you do think it don't say it out loud .

 

[zach0105]

I don't think any good has come out of fighting it. People will get what they want whether the government tells them no or not. It's just a shame so much time, effort, and money has been completely wasted on trying to control this mess.

I think violent crimes would see a decrease, and we'd certainly have more in the federal budget, but I'm not saying much good would come out of legalization. I just think it's bullsh*t that the government has to tell a man what he can do to HIMSELF.

There's just less value in trying to fight it. It's really hard to argue otherwise.

And again, when I say hurt, I could care less about families that aren't mine... I'm talking about endangering lives. I'd trust someone who just shoved a half gram of blow up his nose coming down the road at 3 am more than someone who just drank a 12 pack doing the same thing. This ain't Oprah, gentleman. They have AA meanings for people who don't know what self-control is. I'm talking about bodily harm.

This, I can agree with. Whether it is legal or not, there would still be people abusing it.

Although, it is very selfish of you not to care if it hurts other people's family as long as it's not yours. I've watch a family that I was very close to be torn apart because someone was addicted to drugs. It's not something I would wish on anyone. But I do agree that I would not wish the chaos that ensues when someone in your family is hurt or killed by someone under the influence of drugs or alcohol on anyone either.

 

[VolinMichigan]

I think there needs to be a smooth transition to legalization. If every state in the union legalized to the point of making it as readily available as cigarettes, imagine how pissed off certain international businesses would get. There would be backlash from the cartel, whichever form it may come in.

I think we should decriminalize it nationwide, just for now.

I agree with this. I'm all for pro-pot legislation but full on legalization might be a like trying to run before learning to walk.

 

[DinkinFlicka]

You are wrong in so many ways.

It's not about moderation... Have you ever thought about how some people can drink, smoke pot, pop a few pills and quit anytime they want to while others doing the same thing ( same ammount) cannot stop and become drug addicts and alcoholics.

Dr Phil, the government nor no other human can hold families together when it comes to drugs and alcohol.

Lack of moderation comes down to the individual...
Go ask a addict or alcholic if they just woke up one morning and said what a beautiful day... I think I will become a drunk or addict today.
Ask them if they are enjoying their lives. Ask them why don't they just quit.

You don't think they harm anyone but themselves..
Ask the family of the drunk driver who ran over someone in their family and killed them.

Ask the family of a clerk at the local market that an addict robbed last night at gunpoint and killed the clerk to get $40 to go get a fix.

Ask the parent of an addict who has to cut the tabs out of their teenagers cloths so they wont return them to the store to get enough money for a pill.

I could go on and on ...

Don't never think for one minute that a drunk or drug addict does not hurt no one but themselves.
If you do think it don't say it out loud .

Shows MY stupidity? Hell, you just spent half your post proving my argument right. Way to go! Let me show you just HOW you managed this fiasco.

Lack of moderation comes down to the individual...
Go ask a addict or alcholic if they just woke up one morning and said what a beautiful day... I think I will become a drunk or addict today.
Ask them if they are enjoying their lives. Ask them why don't they just quit.

Read all my other posts... "lack of moderation" has been my cornerstone argument, Einstein. You just fed a dead point. They don't quit because they've lost control of themselves. That tends to be a pesky side effect when you don't know moderation from a horse's ass.

If it comes down to lack of moderation from the individual, then it makes no difference whether or not it's legal. It's nobody's fault for selling it, or legalizing it. It's the user's fault at the end of the day. Any former addict (Helloooooo!) will tell you that. I never once blamed anyone but myself. Legal or no, I'm the one who lacked self-control... it was the tiny bit I had left over that kept me alive.

And again, for the fifth or so time, I'm not talking about hurting anyone emotionally. I'm talking about endangering another person's life. If you're going to sit here and preach this holier than thou crap and try and call it a logical argument, then you need to jump on the 80 year old "prohibition" bandwagon. This is a bunch of quaint bull. IT'S NOT THE GOVERNMENT'S JOB TO MAKE SURE YOUR FAMILY IS HAPPY.

Is your post blue because you're an angel?

 

[DinkinFlicka]

This, I can agree with. Whether it is legal or not, there would still be people abusing it.

Although, it is very selfish of you not to care if it hurts other people's family as long as it's not yours. I've watch a family that I was very close to be torn apart because someone was addicted to drugs. It's not something I would wish on anyone. But I do agree that I would not wish the chaos that ensues when someone in your family is hurt or killed by someone under the influence of drugs or alcohol on anyone either.

I don't wish that upon anyone... of course not. But let's be real... do you REALLY care about a family thousands of miles away you don't know? I mean yeah, it sucks for them... but am I going to take that into account when that prop eventually comes to our state? No. Not only because I have no emotional ties to some strange family, but because it's not even relevant to whether or not drugs should be legal.

Hell, alcohol is legal, and you have tons of alcoholics. Alcohol was illegal at one point, you still had tons of alcoholics.

Doesn't change jack squat, except we have our freedom.

And man, I'm not as desensitized as you might be thinking. I've just seen the results of addictions long enough to where I've learned that legality has NOTHING to do with it. Yeah, it sucks that it has to happen and in my perfect world everyone would practice self-control and still have fun. When you see that stuff enough, you stop really caring about other people you don't know who are going through it. You just hope it doesn't happen to you and yours.

 

[Gramps]

Shows MY stupidity? Hell, you just spent half your post proving my argument right. Way to go! Let me show you just HOW you managed this fiasco.




Read all my other posts... "lack of moderation" has been my cornerstone argument, Einstein.

If it comes down to lack of moderation from the individual, then it makes no difference whether or not it's legal. It's nobody's fault for selling it, or legalizing it. It's the user's fault at the end of the day. Any former addict (Helloooooo!) will tell you that. I never once blamed anyone but myself. Legal or no, I'm the one who lacked self-control... it was the tiny bit I had left over that kept me alive.

And again, for the fifth or so time, I'm not talking about hurting anyone emotionally. I'm talking about endangering another person's life. If you're going to sit here and preach this holier than thou crap and try and call it a logical argument, then you need to jump on the 80 year old "prohibition" bandwagon. This is a bunch of quaint bull.

Is your post blue because you're an angel?

ASK any drug addict or alcoholic if they can use in moderation.. They all will tell you no.

If they could use in moderation they would not be addicts or alcoholic.

I am not preaching any holier than thou nothing.

Legal has nothing to do with it...
alcohol is legal... precription drugs are legal.
pot is illegal but anyone can get in a manner of minutes if they choose to,

My argument is you saying drugs nor alcohol do not harm anyone but the person using them....
Anyone with one ounce of common sense knows that is a crock of shat.

You don't think a drug addict robbing someone , harms the person they are robbing.

You don't think a drug addict or drunk playing with a gun and accidently shoots someone, harms the person they shot.

You don't think being wasted on drugs or alcohol while driving and having an accident and putting an entire family in the morgue or hospital, harms that family.

 

[DinkinFlicka]

ASK any drug addict or alcoholic if they can use in moderation.. They all will tell you no.

If they could use in moderation they would not be addicts or alcoholic.

I am not preaching any holier than thou nothing.

Legal has nothing to do with it...
alcohol is legal... precription drugs are legal.
pot is illegal but anyone can get in a manner of minutes if they choose to,

My argument is you saying drugs nor alcohol do not harm anyone but the person using them....
Anyone with one ounce of common sense knows that is a crock of shat.

You don't think a drug addict robbing someone , harms the person they are robbing.

You don't think a drug addict or drunk playing with a gun and accidently shoots someone, harms the person they shot.

You don't think being wasted on drugs or alcohol while driving and having an accident and putting an entire family in the morgue or hospital, harms that family.

You're not very smart, are you? We've been through this a million times. When someone says they are unable to moderate drug use, that means they lack self-control. That would mean it's their fault... not the substance's. Drugs are inanimate. They cannot be blamed for things.

Guns don't kill. Neither do drugs. It's the asshoIe pulling the trigger and shooting the syringe.

All that aside, you're still throwing situations that aren't as common as you think. Situations that go back to... you guessed it... the individual.

I'm saying this again, if you're going to argue this, then do you believe alcohol should be illegal? You're avoiding this because you want to answer yes, but you know that would make you look like a quaint fool who's stuck in a time period when jazz was considered the devil's music.

You don't know a lot about this subject.

 

[Gramps]

You're not very smart, are you? We've been through this a million times. When someone says they are unable to moderate drug use, that means they lack self-control. That would mean it's their fault... not the substance's. Drugs are inanimate. They cannot be blamed for things.

Guns don't kill. Neither do drug. It's the asshoIe pulling the trigger and shooting the syringe.

All that aside, you're still throwing situations that aren't as common as you think. Situations that go back to... you guessed it... the individual.

You don't know a lot about this subject.

You are really showing your lack of knowledge on this subject.
You need to read a little about drug addiction before you start shooting your mouth off, making yourself sound... well, not to smart.
There are some good articles that you can find on the internet... Google ( that's a search engine) can be your friend.
No one is a drug addict or alcohoic because they lack the self control to use in moderation.
They have a problem, they cannot use in moderation and yes they do harm others.

I'm done with this thread.. my daddy taught me a long time ago that I should never argue with someone that thinks they know eerything when in fact they know nothing about the subject being argued.

I hope you have a good night and a better day tomorrow.

 

[DinkinFlicka]

You are really showing your lack of knowledge on this subject.
You need to read a little about drug addiction before you start shooting your mouth off, making yourself sound... well, not to smart.
There are some good articles that you can find on the internet... Google ( that's a search engine) can be your friend.
No one is a drug addict or alcohoic because they lack the self control to use in moderation.
They have a problem, they cannot use in moderation and yes they do harm others.

I'm done with this thread.. my daddy taught me a long time ago that I should never argue with someone that thinks they know eerything when in fact they know nothing about the subject being argued.

I hope you have a good night and a better day tomorrow.

Yeah, because firsthand knowledge means nothing.

Why would I need to read about drug addiction when I myself have been in those shoes? I was an addict for three years, and YOU'RE telling ME to read a freakin' book? Wow, you were home-schooled weren't you?

No one is a drug addict or alcohoic because they lack the self control to use in moderation.

I'm not going to argue against this, belittle it, or make jokes at your expense. I'm just gonna embolden it and draw special attention to it.

And by the way...

you start shooting your mouth off, making yourself sound... well, not to smart.

Too*... thanks for playing, chief. Do yourself a favor and fire up one.

 

[tim]

Another "legalize pot" thread. I love these.

 

[DinkinFlicka]

Another "legalize pot" thread. I love these.

Actually, if you read the Op, it's a why/why not thread.

 

[Infinite_vol615]

Im 16 and im against pot legalization, they say weed isnt a gateway drug, well from personal expierence it is. one thing leads to another, the human mind is curious and will expierement with anything.meh.....

 

[tim]

Actually, if you read the Op, it's a why/why not thread.

Since it is currently illegal the debate would center around the legalization, essentially eliminating the "Why not" part. Hence, another legalize pot thread.

 

[SDV]

Im 16 and im against pot legalization, they say weed isnt a gateway drug, well from personal expierence it is. one thing leads to another, the human mind is curious and will expierement with anything.meh.....

No it's not. I used to smoke the hell out of weed, but never did anything else. Its up to the individual. No offense, but you are way to young to be giving advice about drug use.
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[volinbham]

I'm for decriminalization. I don't think it needs to be fully legalized but no need to put people in jail for growing or smoking it. I'd be okay with it being legalized too.

 

[Tenacious D]

No it's not. I used to smoke the hell out of weed, but never did anything else. Its up to the individual. No offense, but you are way to young to be giving advice about drug use.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

What about his age invalidated his point, or should be used to diminish his opinion?
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[Tenacious D]

You're not very smart, are you? We've been through this a million times. When someone says they are unable to moderate drug use, that means they lack self-control. That would mean it's their fault... not the substance's. Drugs are inanimate. They cannot be blamed for things.

Guns don't kill. Neither do drugs. It's the asshoIe pulling the trigger and shooting the syringe.

All that aside, you're still throwing situations that aren't as common as you think. Situations that go back to... you guessed it... the individual.

I'm saying this again, if you're going to argue this, then do you believe alcohol should be illegal? You're avoiding this because you want to answer yes, but you know that would make you look like a quaint fool who's stuck in a time period when jazz was considered the devil's music.

You don't know a lot about this subject.

Why do you keep insulting him? And who anointed you the Emperor of All That Is Drugs & Addiction, attempting to certify who does / does not know anything on either subject, seemingly, simply for holding an opinion contrary to your own?

Being an ex-addict no more makes you an expert than it makes every fat person a chef. So, you can stow that nonsense, bub.
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[Tenacious D]

I'm for decriminalization. I don't think it needs to be fully legalized but no need to put people in jail for growing or smoking it. I'd be okay with it being legalized too.

I think every American should be REQUIRED to smoke a joint, so as to best example its many, many positive effects.

And it would also remove all of the horrible stigma that pot smokers have endured all of these years....because we'd all be potheads.

Utopia done up'n come to Earth. That's what it'd be like.
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[IPorange]

I'm of the opinion that it should be decriminalized. The cost of enforcing those laws is not worth the gain, imo.

 

[DinkinFlicka]

Why do you keep insulting him? And who anointed you the Emperor of All That Is Drugs & Addiction, attempting to certify who does / does not know anything on either subject, seemingly, simply for holding an opinion contrary to your own?

Being an ex-addict no more makes you an expert than it makes every fat person a chef. So, you can stow that nonsense, bub.
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It has nothing to do with his opinion opposing mine... it's the fact that he does so with no personal knowledge on the subject. He's saying drug addiction is to be blamed solely on the substance, which is completely asinine.

I never said being an ex-addict made me an expert, but is sure as hell gives me a bit more insight into whether to blame the substance, or the individual using it.

And if you're seriously asking me why I was insulting him, then you clearly read NONE of his posts. I'm not going to be harped for my theological views and called ridiculous without firing back. Sorry if calling someone out for not knowing jack about which they speak struck a nerve, but that's debate for you.

All of dude's posts were full of Lifetime documentary BS, and I'm not dumb enough to buy into it.

 

[BearCat204]

Im 16 and im against pot legalization, they say weed isnt a gateway drug, well from personal expierence it is. one thing leads to another, the human mind is curious and will expierement with anything.meh.....

I couldnt disagree more with your post. I am 34 and have been smoking pot on and off for about 14 years. I have yet to try any other illegal drugs.