PSA: Support Spyre and The Volunteer Club

[HoleInTheRoof]

I dont attend games because of where I live. Those events are not for everyone and are only catered towards people who can travel to Knoxville. So what, maybe 20% of the fanbase? And that’s being generous.

There’s so much more money out there than that. Cmon man, think big picture. Ole miss has 7000 members. Where is spyre now?

I will give my ALL for Tennessee!*

*unless it’s $25 a month. That’s asking a lot.

 

[Adam Sandler]

You’ve accumulated almost 50k posts on a forum when time is the most valuable resource you have but go on and preach how those of us willing to spare a measley $25 a month to help our team potentially win have lost perspective on what’s important.

Ouch. Got em. I’ve been on the same amount of time - I believe since 2009, think I spend entirely too much time on here (my family would agree), and I only have 12k messages.

His post to like ratio certainly doesn’t help his credibility.

 

[Adam Sandler]

EV, again appreciate what you're doing. But, what y'all are doing right now may not be working.

Also, I dont need to lean on multiple degrees in Radio/Communications to turn on the dial - of a medium I chose to work in. Ive not once heard a Spyre or VC commercial.

I contributed last year to VC. Not even an alumni of UT. Several questions I posed to Spyre that were never answered were,

1. Why are you only hitting us plebes up on MB's? Ive heard one Spyre shout out, inside Neyland. Why arent you all reaching out to alumni and one if largest bases in US? Trust me ive been to events in Orlando, and Atl.

2. Where are our dollars going? There is no accountability or visibility. Why would I give MORE money to what?? No clue

3. Lack of results. I know Ill get blasted for this. But truthfully. Looking around, Spyre is supposed to he the standard bearer. The example by which all collectives operate.

2a. Because of lack of visibility, I have no data to answer where or what our money is being spent on. Granted my $5 a month was peanuts. I cant imagine if I were a real donor. Now the narrative is one of guilt??

These facilities, this program should sign a top ten class every year. Again, maybe its NCAA? Maybe kids are leveraging Spyre versus other programs? Maybe we dont have a closer? Maybe we blew our wad on current team? Maybe big time BC's see our depth and dont want to wait to play? Maybe there is negative recruiting?

The secrecy and visibility issues are questionable. i see no real effort being made to increase the number of donors, and, see us getting creamed by other teams with inferior resources. And now, were getting a guilt trip, and being asked to pay more?

That isnt a good look iyam. Again, appreciate what y'all are doing but, I think VC may have a tough year.

I would add that on the topic of transparency around financials:

1. non-profits absolutely benefit from transparency on reporting and marketing total dollar figures and percentages in regards to how their donations are spent. They compete all the time with other charities for those dollars.

2. And who cares if our opponents know how much we bring in? If they up their ante, that only matters to the extent that they have good management of those funds. If they don’t have good management, it actually hurts them. It hasn’t happened yet but I am very much looking forward to looking back 3 years from now and seeing what all this portal activity did for Ole Miss. I think they are going to miss the mark and potentially have a jumbo fisher situation on their hands.

3. Everyone who complains about the current state of NIL will benefit from numbers being more transparent and the market coming to an equilibrium where all offers are competitive enough that again the blue bloods who have more to offer than just money (which is us) will stand above the rest, just as they always have. NIL helps everyone have more. But it will not ever level the playing field entirely for the haves nots against the haves. Just the way the world works. Capitalism and free markets, communism and depression of the masses, it’s never going to solve for making everyone equal. But it shouldn’t be about equal. It should be about everyone having “enough”. Free markets, and NIL, help that.

 

[Jackcrevol]

I would add that on the topic of transparency around financials:

1. non-profits absolutely benefit from transparency on reporting and marketing total dollar figures and percentages in regards to how their donations are spent. They compete all the time with other charities for those dollars.

2. And who cares if our opponents know how much we bring in? If they up their ante, that only matters to the extent that they have good management of those funds. If they don’t have good management, it actually hurts them. It hasn’t happened yet but I am very much looking forward to looking back 3 years from now and seeing what all this portal activity did for Ole Miss. I think they are going to miss the mark and potentially have a jumbo fisher situation on their hands.

3. Everyone who complains about the current state of NIL will benefit from numbers being more transparent and the market coming to an equilibrium where all offers are competitive enough that again the blue bloods who have more to offer than just money (which is us) will stand above the rest, just as they always have. NIL helps everyone have more. But it will not ever level the playing field entirely for the haves nots against the haves. Just the way the world works. Capitalism and free markets, communism and depression of the masses, it’s never going to solve for making everyone equal. But it shouldn’t be about equal. It should be about everyone having “enough”. Free markets, and NIL, help that.

I'm all about transparency. Good business sense. If there's nothing to hide, then there should be nothing to hide. Again, Spyre owes us nothing. But, its logical if rattling the same can for same ten rats.

 

[Cosmo Kramer]

Perhaps I am in the minority here, but I personally expect nothing in return for my donations. My only goal is to contribute to our NIL fund directly and encourage others to do the same, with the hope that we have the most robust and sustainable NIL collective in the country. All I want is to "win more games" by having the top talent on our roster. The tailgates, memorabilia and events are nice perks. Many members expect these perks in return. To that end, Eric and I, (and several others) also donate our time and labor to make sure all events leave a lasting impression. I personally want to see 10,000+ fans as individual members. This should equate to about $4 million a year towards the overall budget. $4 million a year won't cover the entire budget, but it will create a steady and predictable income stream for the collective that allows for sustainable retention, portal additions and HS recruits year after year. Let's face it, this is the new reality in the NCAA. Every year coaches will have to retain current players, fill gaps from the portal and attract the top HS talent. This requires a robust NIL collective to provide these opportunities. I don't expect everyone to share in my viewpoint and that is why we appreciate everyone's feedback on here. We want as many new members as possible!

All I need. Plus knowing my monthly donation helps TN Athletics.

 

[VOLfrombama]

I will give my ALL for Tennessee!*

*unless it’s $25 a month. That’s asking a lot.

I guess that’s why I’ve given twice, two years in a row. But I guess you conveniently forgot to read that part.

 

[ThanksMurphy]

I would add that on the topic of transparency around financials:

1. non-profits absolutely benefit from transparency on reporting and marketing total dollar figures and percentages in regards to how their donations are spent. They compete all the time with other charities for those dollars.

2. And who cares if our opponents know how much we bring in? If they up their ante, that only matters to the extent that they have good management of those funds. If they don’t have good management, it actually hurts them. It hasn’t happened yet but I am very much looking forward to looking back 3 years from now and seeing what all this portal activity did for Ole Miss. I think they are going to miss the mark and potentially have a jumbo fisher situation on their hands.

3. Everyone who complains about the current state of NIL will benefit from numbers being more transparent and the market coming to an equilibrium where all offers are competitive enough that again the blue bloods who have more to offer than just money (which is us) will stand above the rest, just as they always have. NIL helps everyone have more. But it will not ever level the playing field entirely for the haves nots against the haves. Just the way the world works. Capitalism and free markets, communism and depression of the masses, it’s never going to solve for making everyone equal. But it shouldn’t be about equal. It should be about everyone having “enough”. Free markets, and NIL, help that.

I get why everyone wants to know this but it's a very complex situation.
1) We have competitive reasons to not disclose a player's contract to the general public. With the one-time and unlimited portal transfers now, we cannot let other teams / collectives know what a player is making. Too easy to tamper and entice them away
2) Team dynamics between players. This is a huge issue and a major reason a player cannot disclose their contract details and why its enforced with an NDA clause.
3) Cost management, disclosing contracts would only lead to a run-up of roster costs for the two reasons outlined already.
4) TVC is not a non-profit. Individual member donors are told that 90% of their membership goes to the players. That is a verified number via a private audit and I personal think this is sufficient. Large donors are given more information in private about how their funds are used as well. TVC is an LLC and they are under no obligation to disclose anything to the general public as well. If they were a 501(c)(3), then they would have to disclose high level numbers via an annual audit. Even then, I don't believe a 501(c)(3) has to disclose details of contracts with a 1099 contractor.

 

[Adam Sandler]

I dont attend games because of where I live. Those events are not for everyone and are only catered towards people who can travel to Knoxville. So what, maybe 20% of the fanbase? And that’s being generous.

There’s so much more money out there than that. Cmon man, think big picture. Ole miss has 7000 members. Where is spyre now?

How on earth does ole miss have more members than us

 

[Adam Sandler]

I get why everyone wants to know this but it's a very complex situation.
1) We have competitive reasons to not disclose a player's contract to the general public. With the one-time and unlimited portal transfers now, we cannot let other teams / collectives know what a player is making. Too easy to tamper and entice them away
2) Team dynamics between players. This is a huge issue and a major reason a player cannot disclose their contract details and why its enforced with an NDA clause.
3) Cost management, disclosing contracts would only lead to a run-up of roster costs for the two reasons outlined already.
4) TVC is not a non-profit. Individual member donors are told that 90% of their membership goes to the players. That is a verified number via a private audit and I personal think this is sufficient. Large donors are given more information in private about how their funds are used as well. TVC is an LLC and they are under no obligation to disclose anything to the general public as well. If they were a 501(c)(3), then they would have to disclose high level numbers via an annual audit. Even then, I don't believe a 501(c)(3) has to disclose details of contracts with a 1099 contractor.

I get it. Also would never expect individual deal specifics/details to be disclosed. That’s ludicrous. Just overall organization flows summary.

 

[Adam Sandler]

i may not make it to 10 points, but here are some things i would try to do if i were part of your team:
1. While I have seen Spyre featured in ads on the jumbotron during timeouts, i would have a station set up inside every major gate with representatives there to answer questions and solicit new members. In my opinion, you will get a lot better response from people when they have their juices flowing by being at the game and honestly, how many people might have signed up after the Alabama game last year if Spyre had been agressively represented at the game. I shouldnt be able to turn around at Neyland Stadium unless there is someone there asking me to donate
2. To go along with having a major presence at the games, I would also have many other spots where, quite frankly, representatives are holding a bucket or a locked box, where people can just straight-up drop a $20 in as they walk by. Maybe even give them a ticket for every $20 they donate. Then..
3. At halftime, take all of the ticket numbers you gave out down on the field, put them in a big hopper, draw out, say, three numbers, and whoever has the other half of that ticket wins a prize, one of which could be a nice prize like an autographed helmet or jersey, then two pictures or something of NIL athletes.
4. While i understand what you are thinking by making perks like meet and greets with former players, and even current players for members only, in my opinion, you are missing an opportunity by not having these available to the general public as well. If i were in charge, I would have, say, Al Wilson at a location for 2 hours signing autographs. If you are a Spyre member, you can get a free autograph and have a separate line that gets them to the front immediately. But for everyone else, require a one time $50 donation to get an autograph. And this is something you could do throughout the year with Basketball and Football players, but it would be important to make sure current players are included as well. Lets be honest, how many people would donate $50 for a chance to meet and get Nico's autograph right now? You will say that you want perks for members, but I say the guy who spends $50 for Tee Martins autograph might be the next guy to think he wants to be a part of your program.
5. I have never thought about it, but i could agree with someone earlier who said that if you do not live in Knoxville, say you live in Nashville or Memphis, you can feel a little left out. Perhaps Spyre needs to spearhead and grow a concept like the Big Orange Caravan and organize events across the state during the offseason, maybe even bring current and former players along for "An Evening with the Vols" where you sell tickets for a social event and Q&A. On top of that, I would try to purchase something like a souvenir trailer that NASCAR drivers used to have. A small trailer you could wrap with Spyre messaging and take it to events around the state to give out information and sign people up. Got to county fairs, set up at Titans games, anywhere there are people you are missing out on.
6. Maybe for people who do not live around Knoxville, you might have to offer a different kind of incentive. Maybe instead of meet and greet, you could at least let them send items in to be signed by the people you do meet and greets with. At least they could get an autograph that way
7. I think a place you are missing out is not having very public relationships with businesses in town who cater to the people you are looking for. There are two nice sized sports card shops in Knoxville, and I have yet to see anything in their shops that makes me think they even know you. Then you have places like Hound Dogs and two or three places in West Town Mall where you should be working hand in hand with. The people you want are visiting these places.
8. Speaking of the mall, you totally missed the boat over the Christmas holiday. You should have had a kiosk at malls like West Town, Opry Mills, a mall in Memphis, Johnson City, and other major cities where, from Thanksgiving to Christmas you are selling memberships for people to give as Christmas Gifts. Once again, impulse buys. "Give your Vol Fan the Gift of Supporting Current and Future Vol Athletes. For a One Time Donation of $100 They Will Get a Welcome Package with a Certificate, a Christmas Ornament, Autographed Picture of a Current Vol Athlete, and a Volunteer Club T-Shirt, All In an Orange and White Gift Box". I mean really, you missed that opportunity that was right in front of you
9. I know this going to be a loaded statement, but one of the biggest problems you have is that you are not controlling the messaging, and that is hurting you. Like it or not, true or not, one of the prevailing opinions of Spyre right now is that "they are supposed to be the top collective, but all we hear is that we are getting outbid for players, then getting told they were not a fit. How can Ole Miss spend like a drunken sailor and kill the portal while we are constantly being told we pass on players when their asking price is too high" like i say, may be true, may not be, and i know there is only so much we can spend, but when thats the message that people start believing, it might as well be true. I know you are not going to publicize your financials, but there are people in this town sports fans trust that you can probably work with to get the message you want out there. And since i didnt think i would get to this point....
10. Remember, there are two classes of Tennessee fans in the eyes of the Athletic Department. Big Donors who get treated very nice. I know, I know quite a few of them. Lets call them the top 10%, then there is the other 90% who it can be a struggle to come up with that yearly "gift" for the right to buy tickets, which are severely overpriced, and probably going up again. The people who thought they were grandfathered in because they had bought tickets for 50 years, just to find out they are getting shafted so that the 10% can have more legroom. You have the opportunity to let the 90% feel like they are making a difference, dont take that for granted.
Well, there you go, a 10 point plan. I am sure you do not agree with everything I mentioned, but maybe something catches your eye

Didn’t read, but very much appreciate the effort.

 

[Adam Sandler]

There was a halftime message at the Missouri home game in 2022. I don’t go to many, but they are out there.

Maybe it should be during a timeout and not when people are not in their seats

 

[VOLfrombama]

How on earth does ole miss have more members than us

Great question. I would love to see how they’re doing it. If i am reading correctly they have double the members, which is disappointing to say the least

 

[VOLfrombama]

I get why everyone wants to know this but it's a very complex situation.
1) We have competitive reasons to not disclose a player's contract to the general public. With the one-time and unlimited portal transfers now, we cannot let other teams / collectives know what a player is making. Too easy to tamper and entice them away
2) Team dynamics between players. This is a huge issue and a major reason a player cannot disclose their contract details and why its enforced with an NDA clause.
3) Cost management, disclosing contracts would only lead to a run-up of roster costs for the two reasons outlined already.
4) TVC is not a non-profit. Individual member donors are told that 90% of their membership goes to the players. That is a verified number via a private audit and I personal think this is sufficient. Large donors are given more information in private about how their funds are used as well. TVC is an LLC and they are under no obligation to disclose anything to the general public as well. If they were a 501(c)(3), then they would have to disclose high level numbers via an annual audit. Even then, I don't believe a 501(c)(3) has to disclose details of contracts with a 1099 contractor.

Do you know how Ole Miss has so many members?

 

[Adam Sandler]

Definitely feels like that is the blind spot. I will ponder these issues as an outside city fan myself.

We tried to do local events led by captains in cities during the offseason and I know they were fun for those of us in Charleston, but not sure that is sustainable or enough in itself.

Would love to hear other outside 3 hour away fans with ideas of what you could get that would make donating $25-$100 a month more worth it in your eyes if in person events aren't it.

Personalized thank you card to home address, bumper sticker or stickers in general (I’ll put them b!tches all over ATL), the university used to send you a sheet of branded return address labels if you were a member, one annual freebie gift, points with the university’s donor system, free admission to caravan or qb club meetings, discount code for season or individual game tickets (maybe free tickets to choice of game if at $100 level?), not time limited discount code to volshop and volclub, readily accessible contact information for representatives or sponsorship partners should you have more to give, complimentary outreach should your child be in high school athletics and looking to connect with recruiters tied to the university of Tennessee system of schools - free swag for those kids to wear at practice, invitations to camps or offers to connect with coaches at your local high school for education about Tennessee and their NIL efforts, thank you messages from athletes when they sign deals and why that deal helped them come to UT over somewhere else, something that shows how active athletes benefiting from deals are recruiting other prospective athletes so we know the contributions and deals is leading to more of that with continually more sought after athletes, automatic or possibly limited matching contributions to charitable organizations of our choice.

 

[Adam Sandler]

Great question. I would love to see how they’re doing it. If i am reading correctly they have double the members, which is disappointing to say the least

Don’t they have to sign their name to be a member? I would have thought that alone would disqualify most of their fans from joining.

 

[Adam Sandler]

Personally, I think Spyre's attitude towards small time donors is that they really don't want to dedicate that much effort to pursue your $300-500 per year or go after more small time donors. They are too busy catering to those who are donating 4-5+ figures to be a member.

I also think that if they were that interested in the small potatoes, they would offer something more desirable in return. When i joined, I got a jabari small autographed pic. I was disappointed it wasn't Hendon or Jalin. I re-upped in 23 but haven't received anything at all, not even really sure I will.

Take the Jalin Hyatt membership drive for instance during the 22 season. I would love to know how that turned out. Maybe they didn't sell that many? Again the lack of transparency is hurting.

If you sell an autographed picture for $25, 1000 of them would be $25k. I have to assume they aren't interested because its a lot of work for small potatoes, plus the player probably gets a cut. They could have easily done a Jaylen Wright 1000 yard rusher thing if it worked.

Disagree. The bigger donors are probably working directly with spire representatives and I’m sure have plenty of communication with them. Vol Club is all about the little guys and everyone in between. They could do better to flash fundraise during events (text to donate) and market to those outside of Knoxville too. But also, like maybe at games? How many people are in Knoxville or at the games alone. Have volunteers staffers at the tailgates but have spire/vol club reps and ambassadors around campus hitting up all those people who don’t know about it with informational fliers with qr scan codes and stuff to sign people up for one time or monthly donations on the spot. Half those in attendance are drunk and would probably make a one time contribution with Apple Pay/venmo/paypal whatever.

 

[VOLfrombama]

Disagree. The bigger donors are probably working directly with spire representatives and I’m sure have plenty of communication with them. Vol Club is all about the little guys and everyone in between. They could do better to flash fundraise during events (text to donate) and market to those outside of Knoxville too. But also, like maybe at games? How many people are in Knoxville or at the games alone. Have volunteers staffers at the tailgates but have spire/vol club reps and ambassadors around campus hitting up all those people who don’t know about it with informational fliers with qr scan codes and stuff to sign people up for one time or monthly donations on the spot. Half those in attendance are drunk and would probably make a one time contribution with Apple Pay/venmo/paypal whatever.

I think our membership could easily double or triple if they really went after the little guys hard

 

[VOLfrombama]

Don’t they have to sign their name to be a member? I would have thought that alone would disqualify most of their fans from joining.

Signing an X is still signing. Still, it’s embarrassing we are around half their members

 

[ThanksMurphy]

Disagree. The bigger donors are probably working directly with spire representatives and I’m sure have plenty of communication with them. Vol Club is all about the little guys and everyone in between. They could do better to flash fundraise during events (text to donate) and market to those outside of Knoxville too. But also, like maybe at games? How many people are in Knoxville or at the games alone. Have volunteers staffers at the tailgates but have spire/vol club reps and ambassadors around campus hitting up all those people who don’t know about it with informational fliers with qr scan codes and stuff to sign people up for one time or monthly donations on the spot. Half those in attendance are drunk and would probably make a one time contribution with Apple Pay/venmo/paypal whatever.

We do this already on game day. Not as successful as one might think. We worked G10 all season long but most people tailgating don’t want to be bothered or don’t signup even after scanning the QR codes. I am sure we can do better but attempts were made. I probably signed up on average 2 people for every 50 I talked too on game day. I also worked vol village all season long. Same results. I even had baseball players with me at the vol village. People will take pictures with the players, scan the QR code, take the handout.. Don’t signup.

 

[ThanksMurphy]

Signing an X is still signing. Still, it’s embarrassing we are around half their members

We might have 1/2 the numbers, but our average per member is still better and we still likely bring in more $ with 4000 than they do with 7000.

 

[Adam Sandler]

Tennessee has more than enough well-heeled fans to support a competitive NIL collective. I get what Spyre and The Volunteer Club are trying to do, but I would expect the brunt of the collective's coffers to be filled by a very small portion of the fanbase, the same people (understandably) privy to exactly how the money is being spent. I would also expect a very sizable portion of the collective to be funded by corporations, and notice that the three companies advertising on the back of the scoreboard are absent from the collective's group of sponsors (seems like they'd be pretty low-hanging fruit to get involved).

At the very bottom of the hierarchy is where general donations should exist, and I'm not sure that bullying the fanbase into donating when they receive nothing but a few stickers and a t-shirt along with a "trust us, your money is in good hands!" promise is a great strategy. Ultimately, I just don't think that this NIL collective is being handled very effectively. There are so many things that a club could offer its members, especially if the minimum donation for Checkerboard membership were raised to $50 or $98 a month, that would get participants feeling involved and valued but I'm just not seeing any of them. Some sort of membership card awarding special offers with your partners/sponsors? A members-only forum which, unlike TOS, has a somewhat lofty barrier of entry? Event access is discussed at the Smokey tier, but details are super vague and I'm sure there's more to offer on that front. Even if they're puff pieces, why not hire a beat reporter or two that covers the AD and would presumably benefit from some special access/insight given Spyre/The Volunteer Club's close relationship with the school?

People want to belong to something and, as it's presently structured, The Volunteer Club doesn't appear to be offering the sense of community/belonging one might (rightfully) expect for parting with their money. Until that changes, the effort would be better off having Haslam on speed dial and going that route as opposed to soliciting donations on a Tennessee fan forum and then acting as if non-members aren't true Scotsmen.

Members only forum would be sweet though not maybe necessary.

Bits or even q&a from those involved with NIL and in the athletic administration for further education and pushing would be cool.

 

[Adam Sandler]

Perhaps I am in the minority here, but I personally expect nothing in return for my donations. My only goal is to contribute to our NIL fund directly and encourage others to do the same, with the hope that we have the most robust and sustainable NIL collective in the country. All I want is to "win more games" by having the top talent on our roster. The tailgates, memorabilia and events are nice perks. Many members expect these perks in return. To that end, Eric and I, (and several others) also donate our time and labor to make sure all events leave a lasting impression. I personally want to see 10,000+ fans as individual members. This should equate to about $4 million a year towards the overall budget. $4 million a year won't cover the entire budget, but it will create a steady and predictable income stream for the collective that allows for sustainable retention, portal additions and HS recruits year after year. Let's face it, this is the new reality in the NCAA. Every year coaches will have to retain current players, fill gaps from the portal and attract the top HS talent. This requires a robust NIL collective to provide these opportunities. I don't expect everyone to share in my viewpoint and that is why we appreciate everyone's feedback on here. We want as many new members as possible!

This. Thank you for your efforts! Personally how I feel (even though I’m not an ambassador or involved other than being an member) and just wish there were as many people like myself who had the arguably unhealthy passion for our sports and nominal disposable income to donate.

 

[Adam Sandler]

We do this already on game day. Not as successful as one might think. We worked G10 all season long but most people tailgating don’t want to be bothered or don’t signup even after scanning the QR codes. I am sure we can do better but attempts were made. I probably signed up on average 2 people for every 50 I talked too on game day. I also worked vol village all season long. Same results. I even had baseball players with me at the vol village. People will take pictures with the players, scan the QR code, take the handout.. Don’t signup.

Shucks. Well I’m not up there for every game but would love to let people know when I am if you can help give me the resources to hit the pavement for y’all I’m happy to spread the good word.

 

[Adam Sandler]

Signing an X is still signing. Still, it’s embarrassing we are around half their members

This isn’t a bad thought. Sign people up for emails even if they aren’t donating. But they have to be donating to attend or make use of any of the perks. Eventually they’ll get fomo and start donating.

 

[VOLfrombama]

We might have 1/2 the numbers, but our average per member is still better and we still likely bring in more $ with 4000 than they do with 7000.

Likely and is are two different things. Some transparency would alleviate the doubt. Some people are not asking for contract details, just some numbers. Those asking for contract specifics are being ridiculous. I understand you don't have to, and some of your reasoning makes sense, but the attitude by the majority is they aren't going to donate unless they see something definitive.

Also as I said earlier ITT, I donate regardless, because I want to help. Would I like to have a more prominent players autograph? Absolutely, but i'm going to stop giving because you didn't send me anything the second time. In. fact, I upped my donation this year because I can actually see some of the results and actually feel like I'm helping, however small it be. However, I do believe this is the way to get the lower income fans to give, and maybe even some of the fence riders. Not everyone is willing to give regardless of what is given in return.

Wouldn't you and Spyre agree that we need all the help we can get? I would have thought when this began thatg we would have way more than 4000 members by now.