question about Christianity

#558
#558
orangeslice13 said:
And entire books have been written on the subject. Do you have a specific thought you would like to discuss?
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so, why dont u tell us what u want to talk about since ours suck

as described in revelation, why does heaven resemble a borg cube
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#560
#560
OrangeEmpire said:
u dont care, so what do u want to talk about
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Actually I do enjoy a good conversation with people from an opposing view point. I can be a smartass too. I can understand if you've seen some of my post why you would think I either don't care or am just trolling. I am rarely looking for a fight or trying to trick people. Just curious about what other people think.
having said that.........
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#561
#561
OrangeEmpire said:
so, why dont u tell us what u want to talk about since ours suck

as described in revelation, why does heaven resemble a borg cube
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I actually think the new Heaven of Revelations is a pyramid.
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#562
#562
who cares what shape heaven is? I created Hell in the shape of Jamie Farr's cranium - now that's a subject you can talk about.
 
#563
#563
KiffinKiller said:
who cares what shape heaven is? I created Hell in the shape of Jamie Farr's cranium - now that's a subject you can talk about.
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So far you've been he devil, he snake, and now God. Or at least a Creator. And you did recant the snake thing.

My Only question is, are you omniTrollish?
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#565
#565
orangeslice13 said:
Therealut,
Can you come out to play?

Give me your favorite contradiction from the Bible.
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Probably the most compelling and problematic, in my opinion, contradiction in the New Testament.

Matthew 12
30

Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.

31

Therefore, I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

32

And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Mark 9
38

John said to him, "Teacher, we saw someone driving out demons in your name, and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow us."

39

Jesus replied, "Do not prevent him. There is no one who performs a mighty deed in my name who can at the same time speak ill of me.

40

For whoever is not against us is for us.

41

Anyone who gives you a cup of water to drink because you belong to Christ, amen, I say to you, will surely not lose his reward.

42

"Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe (in me) to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were put around his neck and he were thrown into the sea.

43

If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed than with two hands to go into Gehenna, into the unquenchable fire.

44

45

And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life crippled than with two feet to be thrown into Gehenna.

47

And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. Better for you to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into Gehenna,

48

where 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'

49

"Everyone will be salted with fire.

50

Salt is good, but if salt becomes insipid, with what will you restore its flavor? Keep salt in yourselves and you will have peace with one another."

Luke 9
46

An argument arose among the disciples about which of them was the greatest.

47

Jesus realized the intention of their hearts and took a child and placed it by his side

48

and said to them, "Whoever receives this child in my name receives me, and whoever receives me receives the one who sent me. For the one who is least among all of you is the one who is the greatest."

49

Then John said in reply, "Master, we saw someone casting out demons in your name and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow in our company."

50

Jesus said to him, "Do not prevent him, for whoever is not against you is for you."
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This is a quandary.

If you are wondering what my favorite books of the Bible are: Jeremiah, Wisdom, and James.
 
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#566
#566
TRUT,
Floating between mid school wrestling practice and high school football practice. Will get back to this soon.
thanks.
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#571
#571
orangeslice13 said:
The question is how does God reveal Himself. It is up to every living person to answer that question for themselves.
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I agree with this. Religion is subjective. On a grander note, everything is subjective. One of my favorite quotes is from Leon Trotsky when he said “everything is relative." It is yet another reason why I laugh at people on this board (and in the real world) who believe they know the right/divine answer while everyone else is just an inferior heathen.

As I said earlier, revelation of an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent supernatural being to finite mortals creates many problems of legitimacy. If someone claims to be a prophet, who is to say that they are not indeed a prophet either sent by God or tapped by God to spread his message? Who is to say that Christ is to be believed? Or Christ over Muhammad? Maybe Christ really did have a kingdom in America. Maybe the Garden of Eden really was in Mizzou. It is one thing to have a revelation of a general supernatural force (God), it is quite another to know which prophet to believe. After all, each prophet claims that it is not enough to just believe in a higher power, you must follow the divine rules and wisdom set for by God upon them.

orangeslice13 said:
On the day of Judgement ( it is appointed to man once to die ,then the judgement. ) I get to stand before god and answer for all my actions. I could try to say there were to many options and I got confused as to what was correct. That is not my approach.
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Presumably, if there is indeed a caring God (regardless of religious dogma) which we will face on an ultimate judgment day of some sort, then I believe all men who lived a virtuous life should not fear that day. I feel that any God worth praying to will be more interested in virtuous actions (or lack thereof) of that individual rather than their abstract metaphysical beliefs.

orangeslice13 said:
From my personal experience I asked God to reveal himself to me if He was there. So as I began seeking answers at the age of 30 I was seeking with an open mind. This often gets me in trouble with people on both sides of the argument. Scientific people say my experience is not verifiable. the "Christian community" says I don't fit their denomination. From my perspective God reveals Himself both on a personal level and threw writings. I will concede that translation of the old causes problems for many but seeking truth and using common sense as to what is intended solves most problems. (ask and you will receive, seek and you will find, Knock and it will be opened)
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This is ambiguous to me. Although not explicitly said, it implies a St. Augustine like view upon religion. St. Augustine was jaded by Christianity (and religion in general) when he was a young man. Then as a middle aged man he had a revelation. I am not sure what your personal revelation was. St Augustine’s was when he heard the voice of a small girl sing to him tolle lege (take up and read) the Bible. He then picked up a Bible and randomly turned to a passage from St. Paul. He was famous for saying that “faith seeks, understanding finds” and “faith goes before; understanding follows after.” In Latin, credo ut intelligam which translates “I believe that I might understand.” I personally translate (and have heard many of my philosophy professors) translate it as “I believe, so that I might understand.” It is amazing how one little word can really change/clarify the meaning of a translated phrase.

The problem with St. Augustine’s argument is that it is a vicious circular argument. One cannot bridge the metaphysical dilemma with faith, and then justify their stance with reason because it will ultimately come full circle to faith.

Again, I am not sure whether this is your line of reasoning or not. I just inferred this from your post. I could (probably) am completely wrong.

orangeslice13 said:
I don't like labeling. terms like Christian and Pantheism tend to limit or not fully convey my beliefs. I find it easier just to tell you what I think.
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I respect that. Although I find that labels are helpful in that they convey a lot of information (even though not exacting) in a relatively short amount of time.

orangeslice13 said:
The problem with young earth is that it is taken literally form an English translation and a modern perspective. With reading old literature you should always consider the intended audience. Thousands of years ago the reader had no concept of the universe. There was sky and land. In the Hebrew creation story the first couple of verses say heaven and earth. they soon switch to sky and land. In the English version Heaven and Earth are used threw out. A proper reading of the text does away with the silliness of a young Earth. It has been my experience that when God and science do not agree it is a matter of Dogma. (from both sides)
If you are interested David Snoke wrote a decent book called "A biblical Case for an Old Earth"
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Couldn’t agree more. Not many people take that into consideration.

orangeslice13 said:
Clearly you are a respectful individual who is capable of the exchange of thought and ideas. That is rare these days. I have enjoyed this so keep it coming.
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I will keep this going as long as you want. I’m always down for a good intellectual dialogue.
 
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#572
#572
OrangeEmpire said:
specifically states a cube
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First of all Heaven is never described as a cube. You asked about Heaven being a cube and I repeated it.The reality is in Revelations 21, its the New Jerusalem being described as coming down from the new Heaven to the new Earth. I am very disappointed in both of us for not catching that. Furthermore therealut should have been all over that. we must have all been tired

Now back to the cube thing. You must take into account the intended audience when reading ancient literature. In Rev.21, 9 the word causing the confusion is "square" or "foursquare" depending on which translation you are reading. in the original language the word is "Nadab". Nadab means bottom, base, or root. In terms of construction it was traditionally used to mean square foundation. In other literature of the time the method of describing the great pyramid was to say it had a square foundation with its length and berth being equal. the the peak was said to match as well. people reading this description 1800yrs ago would have understood this is a pyramid. If you feel like looking you will find cube construction of the time was described with both base and roof and their measurement.
It is reasonable to assume that the new Jerusalem is being described as a pyramid.
Hope this helps.
 
#573
#573
therealUT said:
Probably the most compelling and problematic, in my opinion, contradiction in the New Testament.



This is a quandary.

If you are wondering what my favorite books of the Bible are: Jeremiah, Wisdom, and James.
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My friend i must admit to you this is the type of debate i enjoy most. Having said that I will admit that I'm not the brightest bulb in the box. I reread the verses in several translation maybe as many as 40 times. i was on the verge of telling you I was not smart enough to see the quandary when I decided to sleep on it. That is when I remembered you are a words guy and not a spirit of the message guy like I'm used to debating with. I took one more look and I think I got it.

In Mathew "He who is not with us is against us." placing the emphasis on who is against. In Mark and Luke "He who is not against us is for us." placing the emphasis on who is for.

While this is a difference in reading should we not expect this due to the books having 3 different authors. If it were not for these minor inconsistencies we would conclude it was from only one point of view copied from an original source?

And from my position I do not feel that the spirit and intent of the message is lost. The back story is the heart of the disciples. they were worried about who was the best among each other. They waned the unnamed man to stop because he was casting out demons and the 12 had failed to cast out earlier. Jesus was attempting to explain to them to seek God and love one another. the Who was the best was irrelevant. I have this mental image of Christ doing a face palm from time to time trying to teach those guys. I do not want to think about His reaction to my screw ups.

So did I miss it completely or what?
 
#575
#575
orangeslice13 said:
My friend i must admit to you this is the type of debate i enjoy most. Having said that I will admit that I'm not the brightest bulb in the box. I reread the verses in several translation maybe as many as 40 times. i was on the verge of telling you I was not smart enough to see the quandary when I decided to sleep on it. That is when I remembered you are a words guy and not a spirit of the message guy like I'm used to debating with. I took one more look and I think I got it.

In Mathew "He who is not with us is against us." placing the emphasis on who is against. In Mark and Luke "He who is not against us is for us." placing the emphasis on who is for.

While this is a difference in reading should we not expect this due to the books having 3 different authors. If it were not for these minor inconsistencies we would conclude it was from only one point of view copied from an original source?

And from my position I do not feel that the spirit and intent of the message is lost. The back story is the heart of the disciples. they were worried about who was the best among each other. They waned the unnamed man to stop because he was casting out demons and the 12 had failed to cast out earlier. Jesus was attempting to explain to them to seek God and love one another. the Who was the best was irrelevant. I have this mental image of Christ doing a face palm from time to time trying to teach those guys. I do not want to think about His reaction to my screw ups.

So did I miss it completely or what?
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I will not argue with your contextual assessment; this is why I point out the "literal contradictions" as compared to "allegorical truth". I think there is a lot of allegorical truth in the Bible, the Koran, the Upanishads, the Bhagavad-Gita, the Iliad, and the Odyssey.

I think there are individuals who want to label me as Bible-hating; I do not hate the Bible, I think it is a compendium of great literary merit and is filled with a lot of truth. I just do not think it ever should, nor ever could, be taken literally.
 
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