questioning faith

[rjd970]

So you believe in a being powerful enough to create the universe but doesn't care about the creation?

No, I don't.

 

[vol445]

Can't really answer your questions but I will say I have seen a child dead for over 40 minutes and brought back to life with prayer and no brain damage. He answers some but not all. I personally believe we have to pray through to be heard

 

[Roustabout]

Can't really answer your questions but I will say I have seen a child dead for over 40 minutes and brought back to life with prayer and no brain damage. He answers some but not all. I personally believe we have to pray through to be heard

So the child was lying there dead, or there were doctors and Medical staff working to revive?

 

[BigO95]

I don't think prayer does anything other than make some feel good. You know, like they really did something. Just my opinion on that, though.

How is it that God has answered so many of my prayers in exact detail without any body else possibly knowing what I was praying about but me and God?
The reason those prayers got answered because there is a God in heaven that answers prayers and his name is Jesus Christ!

 

[BigO95]

I am not here to start any bashing of believers vs non-believers. I have some things on my mind and want the opinions of others who are believers.

I am a believer. I always have been and I always will be. But honestly, I'm not sure what I believe and what I don't because some things just don't add up with me.

Does prayer actually work? I've always been taught that God controls all, and knows what will happen to each of us. Our birth, our lives, our death..everything. So, with that being said, if a young person get cancer, and it is God's will that he will die from it, what purpose does prayer serve? If enough people pray, does God change his mind? If not enough people pray, does God decide to let the person die?

If God is all powerful and all good, how can childhood cancer be explained? Why would He allow His people to suffer? I'm told God loves us more than we can understand...even more than we love our own children. I know that I had the ability to stop my child from suffering, I sure would. So if God supposedly loves him more than I do, why allow him to suffer?

Things just don't add up sometimes to me

The reason that anyone has to suffer from any disease or tragedy of any kind no matter where you are from or what you have done is that the first man Adam chose to sin against God by partaking of a forbidden fruit in the garden of Eden. That in turn plunged all of mankind into sin. God warned him in the garden that if he ate the fruit that death would come.
Romans 5:12 says," Wherefore,as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin: and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"
And also everyone of us have sinned against God. The truth is that sin and rebellion has brought the curse of sin upon us all.
God has given us laws in the Bible to protect us from ourselves. God commands me not to lie and I think we could all agree that lies bring harm to others and even ourselves. He said thou shalt not kill, we could all agree that murder is a bad thing.
But disobedience to God's law has brought the death curse upon us all. Sometimes even the innocent suffer with the ungodly. When it rains it rains on the just and the unjust.
Death is a horrible thing but it is the only way that we pass from this world to the next. Although death is a hard and horrible thing it is also a merciful thing. Could you imagine living in a body full of disease for all of eternity. You have to understand that we have a soul that will live forever somewhere. And people that die and go to heaven are healed and are very much so better off than us left behind! They are in a place where sickness will never touch them again! It stinks for us left behind and it many times leaves a very big void in our lives but if we look at it from the ones that went to heaven do you really think that they would possibly want to come back to this sin cursed world?
Now all of those promises don't apply to lost folks but for believers and followers of Jesus Christ and those innocent children that doesn't know wrong from right.
Now does Jesus Christ really love and care about you? I would exhort you to take a long look at the cross of Calvary as Gods dear Son laid down his life for the payment for all mens sins. John 3:16 says, " for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
For those who do not believe in God I ask you this, what really is easier to believe? That there is a creator or that nothing made everything and we over billions of years evolved from a rock? It seems simple enough to me!
I hope that helps some

 

[vol445]

So the child was lying there dead, or there were doctors and Medical staff working to revive?

She was kept on a ventilator and the drs were talking with the family about pulling the plug. They were actually waiting until the whole family could get there. But there was no activity

 

[Grey_pilgrim]

She was kept on a ventilator and the drs were talking with the family about pulling the plug. They were actually waiting until the whole family could get there. But there was no activity

It's not on the same level but there was a guy in our church that had rotator cuff repair surgery about a year ago. Never made complete recovery and was incapable of lifting his arm above his head. He asked to be prayed for and directly after the prayer had full use of his arm.

I too, often struggle between believing and not believing but seeing things like this always bolsters my faith.

 

[Roustabout]

It's not on the same level but there was a guy in our church that had rotator cuff repair surgery about a year ago. Never made complete recovery and was incapable of lifting his arm above his head. He asked to be prayed for and directly after the prayer had full use of his arm.

I too, often struggle between believing and not believing but seeing things like this always bolsters my faith.

If true, it makes healing completely arbitrary.

 

[Septic]

How is it that God has answered so many of my prayers in exact detail without any body else possibly knowing what I was praying about but me and God?
The reason those prayers got answered because there is a God in heaven that answers prayers and his name is Jesus Christ!

I prefer to think his name is Larry.

 

[Septic]

The reason that anyone has to suffer from any disease or tragedy of any kind no matter where you are from or what you have done is that the first man Adam chose to sin against God by partaking of a forbidden fruit in the garden of Eden. That in turn plunged all of mankind into sin. God warned him in the garden that if he ate the fruit that death would come.

I feel like this story is what was settled on because kids could visualize with their tiny minds eye this sort of primary concoction.

Show of hands here, how many would buy this explanation as an adult after burying a child that passed from acute lymphocytic leukemia?

Sorry bro, Adam Johnson done ate that apple, sorry about all that cancer.

 

[Dudleys87]

His ghost is my BFF.

I play poker with him once a month on Tuesday nights...

 

[Dudleys87]

Bad things happen to good people...

The first thing someone says is either:

You'll get through it
Or
Everything happens for a reason

One you'll eventually get to the other you'll never understand because we aren't suppose to

 

[Wafflestomper]

I'm a very logical thinker and I can't logically think that this planet, this Galaxy, this universe, is all a big accident. I look up on a clear night and see all those stars. I see how this Earth is precisely the right distance from our sun to not just sustain life but to foster an environment where humans can thrive. I believe a master's hands were involved.

No offense, but that isn't thinking logically; it's a logical fallacy. Argument from personal incredulity.

 

[InVOLuntary]

No offense, but that isn't thinking logically; it's a logical fallacy. Argument from personal incredulity.

Sorry, no offense, but you're absolutely, 100% wrong. There is an order to everything. From what we know now, there is zero evidence that another planet exist like earth where intelligent life exist, despite astronomical odds. Hell, we can't even find a planet to this point that can definitively support any life. Sorry if it doesn't fit in your neat little box.

And, I'll add, neither of us can prove our point one way or another. We each choose to look at the evidence and form an opinion. I choose to look at the evidence and say a master's hand is at work. You choose to look at the evidence and conclude that this is all happenstance, one big huge soup that evolved into what is today. I'm good with mine as I'm sure you are with yours.

 

[pismonque]

I'm a very logical thinker and I can't logically think that this planet, this Galaxy, this universe, is all a big accident. I look up on a clear night and see all those stars. I see how this Earth is precisely the right distance from our sun to not just sustain life but to foster an environment where humans can thrive. I believe a master's hands were involved.

I don't have a problem with your conclusion in the sense that, like you said in your follow-up, people are going to draw different conclusions and that's fine. The flaw I see in your logic though is that it's binary. The answers aren't limited to Accident vs Master's Hands; there are many conclusions in between, or totally separate.

I definitely sense that there is an overarching order and meaning to everything -- some kind of originating, driving and cohesive Something that's behind it all. I have no idea what the nature of that Something may be, and I have no problem with calling it God, but it doesn't make sense to me that it would be the anthropomorphic God we typically think of.

To me, the idea that God would have human-like goals, desires, demands, emotions, interests, etc. (or even a gender!) just doesn't fit with the scale of a Something that runs the unfathomably big universe. Of course, the more human God is certainly more accessible, and it is admittedly a bigger challenge to find comfort, hope and meaning in a disinterested Something.

Whatever the case, I sure don't have the answers, but neither does anyone else, even if they're sure they do. But that's fine. I think you just have to go with what you feel your Truth is, or accept that you don't know and roll with that. Or... something else; that's probably not a binary choice either.

 

[PKT_VOL]

Sorry, no offense, but you're absolutely, 100% wrong. There is an order to everything. From what we know now, there is zero evidence that another planet exist like earth where intelligent life exist, despite astronomical odds.

If one is to point this out, which is a fair point, it would seem intellectual honesty would force one to point out the absurdly small sample size such a fact is alluding to.

Hell, we can't even find a planet to this point that can definitively support any life. Sorry if it doesn't fit in your neat little box.

Definitively support life or probabilistic support life? If the former, we can't even determine such everywhere on Earth, let alone on other planets. If the latter, we definitely have a list of suspects.

 

[Wafflestomper]

Sorry, no offense, but you're absolutely, 100% wrong. There is an order to everything. From what we know now, there is zero evidence that another planet exist like earth where intelligent life exist, despite astronomical odds. Hell, we can't even find a planet to this point that can definitively support any life. Sorry if it doesn't fit in your neat little box.

And, I'll add, neither of us can prove our point one way or another. We each choose to look at the evidence and form an opinion. I choose to look at the evidence and say a master's hand is at work. You choose to look at the evidence and conclude that this is all happenstance, one big huge soup that evolved into what is today. I'm good with mine as I'm sure you are with yours.

I'm certainly not wrong about the logical fallacy. Your conclusion could be right, but not for the reason you gave.

The fact that we can't find another planet with life on it does not lend credence whatsoever to the assertion that there is an intelligent creator. It doesn't mean that life outside of earth is rare either. It just means we haven't found any yet.

Also, I don't have to prove anything. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. I don't see sufficient evidence to support God (or whatever diety you prefer). What convinced you that there is one, aside from the personal incredulity to the alternative?

 

[InVOLuntary]

I'm certainly not wrong about the logical fallacy. Your conclusion could be right, but not for the reason you gave.

The fact that we can't find another planet with life on it does not lend credence whatsoever to the assertion that there is an intelligent creator. It doesn't mean that life outside of earth is rare either. It just means we haven't found any yet.

Also, I don't have to prove anything. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. I don't see sufficient evidence to support God (or whatever dirty you prefer). What convinced you that there is one, aside from the personal incredulity to the alternative?

You guys crack me up. You're so caught up in your rules of scientific "regulation" that you have tunnel vision. You really can't see the forest for the trees. You absolutely have the burden of proof. You make the claim that I am wrong about the existence of a higher power. You prove me wrong. You can't anymore than I can prove my stance. It's pretty easy to say something doesn't exist simply because you can't prove it exist. It's much harder to take all the evidence in front of you and come to decision based on "faith". After all, that's why they call it faith. Like I said earlier it doesn't fit neatly into your little set of rules, taught to you by men, probably many that think just like you. I'm happy with my conclusion, you go ahead be happy with yours and we'll both be happy. At least until we die.

 

[InVOLuntary]

I don't have a problem with your conclusion in the sense that, like you said in your follow-up, people are going to draw different conclusions and that's fine. The flaw I see in your logic though is that it's binary. The answers aren't limited to Accident vs Master's Hands; there are many conclusions in between, or totally separate.

I definitely sense that there is an overarching order and meaning to everything -- some kind of originating, driving and cohesive Something that's behind it all. I have no idea what the nature of that Something may be, and I have no problem with calling it God, but it doesn't make sense to me that it would be the anthropomorphic God we typically think of.

To me, the idea that God would have human-like goals, desires, demands, emotions, interests, etc. (or even a gender!) just doesn't fit with the scale of a Something that runs the unfathomably big universe. Of course, the more human God is certainly more accessible, and it is admittedly a bigger challenge to find comfort, hope and meaning in a disinterested Something.

Whatever the case, I sure don't have the answers, but neither does anyone else, even if they're sure they do. But that's fine. I think you just have to go with what you feel your Truth is, or accept that you don't know and roll with that. Or... something else; that's probably not a binary choice either.

I don't know, I think it is pretty much binary. Either a higher power had His hand in it or He didn't. Human life either was a result of the hands of God or it was the result of some highly unlikely set if circumstances that came to pass that we can't find evidence of happening anywhere else up to now. I find that scenario much less likely, thus my conclusion. Some take the opposite approach, they think because they can't have 100% proof of something, it doesn't exist, which is fine, for them.

 

[InVOLuntary]

If one is to point this out, which is a fair point, it would seem intellectual honesty would force one to point out the absurdly small sample size such a fact is alluding to.

It's the sample size we have to work with. Using any more information than we have available requires faith.

Definitively support life or probabilistic support life? If the former, we can't even determine such everywhere on Earth, let alone on other planets. If the latter, we definitely have a list of suspects.

Show me definitive proof of life on other planets or another planet where life exit. I mean we are talking in absolutes here. We can't come to conclusions based on anything but 100% fact.

 

[Wafflestomper]

You guys crack me up. You're so caught up in your rules of scientific "regulation" that you have tunnel vision. You really can't see the forest for the trees. You absolutely have the burden of proof. You make the claim that I am wrong about the existence of a higher power. You prove me wrong. You can't anymore than I can prove my stance. It's pretty easy to say something doesn't exist simply because you can't prove it exist. It's much harder to take all the evidence in front of you and come to decision based on "faith". After all, that's why they call it faith. Like I said earlier it doesn't fit neatly into your little set of rules, taught to you by men, probably many that think just like you. I'm happy with my conclusion, you go ahead be happy with yours and we'll both be happy. At least until we die.

No, I didn't say you are wrong. I said you could be right, but I have no reason to believe that you are. I asked what evidence you have to justify your belief. Do you have any? If not, then why do you believe?

Do you believe unicorns exist because we can't prove they don't? How about the flying spaghetti monster (pasta be upon him)? Why don't you prove he doesn't exist?

 

[PKT_VOL]

It's the sample size we have to work with.

Right, but that's not the point. It's the intellectual honesty to admit that such is an absurdly small sample size to base that fact on. To omit such is intellectual dishonest at best and misleading at worst.

Using any more information than we have available requires faith.

It would seem "faith" would imply the opposite.

Show me definitive proof of life on other planets or another planet where life exit. I mean we are talking in absolutes here. We can't come to conclusions based on anything but 100% fact.

Again, you missed the point.

We can't eliminate such possibilities everywhere here on Earth. To apply such standards to other planets is absurd.

 

[InVOLuntary]

No, I didn't say you are wrong. I said you could be right, but I have no reason to believe that you are. I asked what evidence you have to justify your belief. Do you have any? If not, then why do you believe?

I've explained my position. You and I both have the same evidence to look at. Neither one of us can prove our point definitively. We have to look at the evidence around us and come up with a conclusion that makes sense to us. I just find the likelihood that our existence is not one of evolution from some ancient soup that formed a protein to a single cell organism to humans today, highly unlikely. It all points to a higher power to me.

Do you believe unicorns exist because we can't prove they don't? How about the flying spaghetti monster (pasta be upon him)? Why don't you prove he doesn't exist?

Surely you can do better than this.

 

[InVOLuntary]

Right, but that's not the point. It's the intellectual honesty to admit that such is an absurdly small sample size to base that fact on. To omit such is intellectual dishonest at best and misleading at worst.



It would seem "faith" would imply the opposite.



Again, you missed the point.

We can't eliminate such possibilities everywhere here on Earth. To apply such standards to other planets is absurd.

No, you've missed the point. You guys want proof that something exist but jump to conclusions simply based on odds. You're critical of me using faith when you are doing the same thing, "The universe is so large, that there has to be another planet that supports life and thus humans are not unigue." You are rolling the dice as much as anyone. You just think you're correct because it fits into a text book.

 

[n_huffhines]

Pray for a life that is saved - God exists and he answers prayers.

Pray for a life that is not saved - it's all part of God's plan.

Prayer for hurricane to calm down works - God answers prayers.

Prayer for hurricane to calm down doesn't work - it's a trial of our faith and an opportunity to help others.

No life on other planets - because God.

Life on other planets - He made that planet too.

Let's be honest, He can't lose.