Randy Sanders comments about procure penalties

[gonygonygo]

If Norte Dame had any kind of defense, they would have beaten USC a couple of weeks ago

 

[volbrian]

Originally posted by gonygonygo@Oct 27, 2005 3:49 PM
If Norte Dame had any kind of defense, they would have beaten USC a couple of weeks ago

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Another good point!

 

[Liper]

Originally posted by gonygonygo@Oct 27, 2005 3:43 PM
I think if we had THAT much talent, we would not be 3-3, no matter how bad the play-calling is said to be.  We would win games  by default.  Honestly, I think you are giving too much credit to our OL and DB's.

We have a bunch of #2 receivers, but no game breakers.

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Well, I'm not a big play-caller basher. I'm more of a lack of teaching, poor organization, no staff help, negative, lack of inspiration, coaching timidity, and slow to adjust basher.

I think Hannon could be all world in USC's offense. Spurrier would have made Hannon a household name. I think Brett Smith, Hannon, Meachem, and Fayton are as good as anyone from a talent perspective.

Our OL is not the best I've ever seen. But USC's isn't either when they play decent teams. USC has an average defense and secondary. I stand by my grade there and think we are better than them at evey single facet of defense.

My contention is that people confuse talent with production. Eventually they should meet somewhere in the middle.

Did you think ND was REALLY talented at QB last year? I'd say you would have answered that ND fans should not expect much because Quinn wasn't very talented...or is he?

How about OKL? Before Stoops got there they were a below .500 club. In his second year they won it all with 5-6 talent. It was amazing, though, the way all of these great players just appeared out of no where once Stoops took over. Before that, they had no talent. With a good coach, the talent fairy dropped off a bunch of studs that shut FSU down completely.

Florida was this great school and all of this talent when Spurrier was there. But for whatever reason, they couldn't win before he got there and they haven't won since. Now people say "he left the program bear" and all of these other excuses.

Same with Pete Carrol and Norm Chow...

 

[Lexvol]

Originally posted by volbrian@Oct 27, 2005 3:47 PM
The only thing USC wins is popular opinions.

Lets not forget that the MNC is "Mythical" NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP.  People get impressed with  a lot of offense.

But conversely, look at the NFL.  More particularily, the Indy Colts and the Baltimore Ravens.

Indy Colts- Plenty of offense- 0 Super Bowl titles.

Baltimore Ravens- Plenty of Defense- 1 SB title. 

Give me a great defense and just an average offense and I'll give you a championship.

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If only we had an average offense.

If only we had a head coach and and OC that spoke to one another on the sidelines. Isn't a little ridiculous for CPF or RS to say they meant to play Ainge more, but they just weren't communicating. How many thousands of dollars worth of headsets are on the sideline at any given time.

Why doesn't that seem to bother anybody?

The Vols have been as talented as anyone that they have played, why is it that they are the ones making the critical mistakes four out of five times?

 

[Lexvol]

Originally posted by gonygonygo@Oct 27, 2005 6:15 AM
Besides the point, what really matters is what happens BETWEEN the whistles!!!  I dont care about how fast the play gets in or not, they aren't executing those plays.  Like I said, look at the other factors too in why this offensive is not working, etc.  Offensive football is more complicated than you seem to be able to comprehend.

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Now right there you say that you don't care how fast the plays get in. Meaning a few delay of games and waisting timeouts are ok. You say communication among coaching doesn't matter when you say it is only the execution of the play is important.

In another post you say the line is not pass blocking well. How many times did RC get sacked against Alabama.

Anyone will tell you that pass blocking is what the OL has done best this year.

As far as testing intellect, you made the first assumption about my level of offensive comprehension, which I assure you is as competent as anyone elses on this board.

 

[smokedog#3]

i have to agree with liper we have close to the same talent as usc. they have us beat with their QB, and Bush. the difference is that their Qb can hit a guy in stride 30 to 50 yards downfield , we don't have that. they are quick and explosive can score very fast. we play ball control field position, not to lose football. the end result is 6-0 and 3-3 if we had there coaches and a better qb we would probably be undefeated to. even with ainge and clausen flip the coaching staff's and we probably are 5-1 or at worst 4-2 in my opinion.

 

[Lexvol]

Originally posted by smokedog#3@Oct 27, 2005 5:04 PM
i have to agree with liper we have close to the same talent as usc.  they have us beat with their QB,  and Bush.  the difference is that their Qb can hit a guy in stride 30 to 50 yards downfield ,  we don't have that.  they are quick and explosive can score very fast.  we play ball control field position,  not to lose football.  the end result is 6-0 and 3-3  if we had there coaches and a better qb we would probably be undefeated to.  even with ainge and clausen flip the coaching staff's and we probably are 5-1 or at worst 4-2 in my opinion.

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5-1 at worst. That doesn't matter because CPF is a saint and RS is his little buddy.

 

[smokedog#3]

i think personally fulmer is probably a great guy, just a bad football coach i've said it before we need some pep in this boring offense and since his style of football is outdated with the rest of the country there needs to be some changes.

 

[Lexvol]

Originally posted by smokedog#3@Oct 27, 2005 5:16 PM
i think personally fulmer is probably a great guy,  just a bad football coach i've said it before we need some pep in this boring offense and since his style of football is outdated with the rest of the country there needs to be some changes.

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CPF will not put butts in the seats forever. They have taken the VN for granted, and it will bite them very soon.

 

[smokedog#3]

i hope something happens pretty soon i'm down. i need some reason to show some optomism, atleast act like we are trying to better ourselves. coaching changes, removing fulmer anything to shake things up.

 

[gonygonygo]

Originally posted by Lexvol@Oct 27, 2005 4:54 PM
Now right there you say that you don't care how fast the plays get in.  Meaning a few delay of games and waisting timeouts are ok. You say communication among coaching doesn't matter when you say it is only the execution of the play is important.

In another post you say the line is not pass blocking well.  How many times did RC get sacked against Alabama. 

Anyone will tell you that pass blocking is what the OL has done best this year.

As far as testing intellect, you made the first assumption about my level of offensive comprehension, which I assure you is as competent as anyone elses on this board.

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From what I saw the last game, Alabama's game plan was to take away all big plays. They succeeded in that, because our longest play was for 35 yards. As I said before, Rick Clausen has NO ability to beat defenses with a deep threat. When we get a better quarterback, things will be alright. Also, I'm still not impressed with the running game we have.

As for the play of the offensive line, they played ok against Alabama. They have been inconsistent all year. Sometimes they play well, other times they look like crap.

 

[Lexvol]

Agreed. UT has a vertical offense. RC does not have the physical tools to run it.

My biggest complaint with the offensive football staff is the lack of player development.

Ainge should be vastly improved over last year, but it seems as though the converse is true. That coupled by the fact that CPF says on the record that they basically meant to play Ainge more, but had a miscommunication really eats my lunch. I see no excuse for that at this point of the season.

 

[volbrian]

Originally posted by Lexvol@Oct 27, 2005 4:50 PM
If only we had an average offense. 

If only we had a head coach and and OC that spoke to one another on the sidelines.  Isn't a little ridiculous for CPF or RS to say they meant to play Ainge more, but they just weren't communicating.  How many thousands of dollars worth of headsets are on the sideline at any given time. 

Why doesn't that seem to bother anybody? 

The Vols have been as talented as anyone that they have played, why is it that they are the ones making the critical mistakes four out of five times?

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Problem is the Vols could be like Bama and UGA, undefeated, and scoring 24 points a game, but we would STILL have to hope peoples OPINIONS of us is favorable.

ALl this because we dont have a playoff. NFL does.

 

[volbrian]

Originally posted by smokedog#3@Oct 27, 2005 5:20 PM
i hope something happens pretty soon i'm down.  i need some reason to show some optomism,  atleast act like we are trying to better ourselves.  coaching changes, removing fulmer anything to shake things up.

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I agree 100%! My problem with CPF is he seems to have lost the fire. Hes just going through the motions.

Now I ask you, is that a fair assessment of our offense?

 

[gonygonygo]

Originally posted by volbrian@Oct 27, 2005 7:11 PM
I agree 100%!  My problem with CPF is he seems to have lost the fire.  Hes just going through the motions.

Now I ask you, is that a fair assessment of our offense?

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you wrapped this thread up nicely!

 

[smokedog#3]

good point volbrien.

 

[indyvol15]

Originally posted by gonygonygo@Oct 27, 2005 3:43 PM
I think if we had THAT much talent, we would not be 3-3, no matter how bad the play-calling is said to be.  We would win games  by default.  Honestly, I think you are giving too much credit to our OL and DB's.

We have a bunch of #2 receivers, but no game breakers.

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so do you think if Charlie Weiss and his staff had this talent we would be 3-3 ?

 

[wilburnVol]

Originally posted by Liper@Oct 26, 2005 2:47 PM
Were the fumbles the players or the coaches?  That's tough; obviously the players are culpible.  But this answer goes deeper.

When players are motivated, trained, confident, and trying to WIN instead of NOT MAKE MISTAKES, they play better.  Now, that is a very subjective thing; but anyone who's played sports at a high level knows this is true.  Our players are UNPREPARED and SCARED OF MAKING MISTAKES.  That is the worst of all worlds.  This is the EXACT reason why Spurrier owned Foulmer's ass all of those years.  Not only are our players unsure of what to do, they are bemoaned to not mess up.  Not only do good coaches out-scheme and out-prepare us (our offense mostly), but their players tend to just flat-out play to more of their potential.

Why did TN seem to make all of thise mistakes when they played FL and no one else?  And why did FL seem to play their best or one of their best games against us?  I mean, FL's skill didn't make Jay Graham fumble on a 3 and 1 dive play; Fl's skill didn't make balls bounce off of people's legs and into James Bates hands; or how many of the other supposed "poorly executed" things that always happened.

My point is that, YES, I think our GENERAL lack of execution and whatever else is coaching.  Now, we could nit-pick one play like a fumble and say it isn't coaching; and that would be fair.  But the systemic problems are there and they pre-date this supposed drop-off and they pre-date RS.  They are just more magnified now because of: (1) Cutcliffe is gone and left a void on the staff and (2) We have less talent in key spots such as QB.

I'm with Patrick, however (and I have always noticed this).  RS doesn't understand why we're playing bad and neither does Fulmer.  Since they are delusional about their influence on our past successes, the only thing they can think is to blame the players.  When we play well, they don't know why.  When we played bad, they don't know why.

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k: Finally someone who understands.

 

[wilburnVol]

Originally posted by Lexvol@Oct 27, 2005 6:36 PM
Agreed.  UT has a vertical offense.  RC does not have the physical tools to run it.

My biggest complaint with the offensive football staff is the lack of player development.

Ainge should be vastly improved over last year, but it seems as though the converse is true.  That coupled by the fact that CPF says on the record that they basically meant to play Ainge more, but had a miscommunication really eats my lunch.  I see no excuse for that at this point of the season.

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Fulmer has failed to recruit a high quality QB for several years now. I liked CClausen but Casey was more overachiever and had the luxury of playing for four years. If Crompton does not comeback from his injury (he should) and JimmyC goes to another SEC team (assuming we don't get lucky and get another Peyton in the process), we are going nowhere fast offensively.

Schaeffer ended up being part thug, part moron and Ainge for reasons clear to me, is the victim of a ridiculously bad call in the ND game which left him injured and now gun shy. Whether he returns to form or not will be a crap shoot. Now can you say A.J.Suggs, Cooter and Daniel Brooks tagalong whathisname.

Phil's saving grace is his ability to (close) recruits but he got lucky on Foster (weren't recruiting him), Houston looked like he ran on rails, Riggs over 4 years is a bust, Williams is another "where do you play him" player, J. Davis was an overrecruited HS player, and we had to move FumbleFingers to FB to have one. If Georgia hadn't had Ray Goofus as HC, we would never had a NC.

I like Phil, really do, but as sands through the hourglass, these may be the last Days of His (Football) Life. lol:

 

[gonygonygo]

Originally posted by wilburnVol@Oct 28, 2005 1:53 PM
Fulmer has failed to recruit a high quality QB for several years now. I liked CClausen but Casey was more overachiever and had the luxury of playing for four years. If Crompton does not comeback from his injury (he should) and JimmyC goes to another SEC team (assuming we don't get lucky and get another Peyton in the process), we are going nowhere fast offensively.

Schaeffer ended up being part thug, part moron and Ainge for reasons clear to me, is the victim of a ridiculously bad call in the ND game which left him injured and now gun shy. Whether he returns to form or not will be a crap shoot. Now can you say A.J.Suggs, Cooter and Daniel Brooks tagalong whathisname.

Phil's saving grace is his ability to (close) recruits but he got lucky on Foster (weren't recruiting him), Houston looked like he ran on rails, Riggs over 4 years is a bust, Williams is another "where do you play him" player, J. Davis was an overrecruited HS player, and we had to move FumbleFingers to FB to have one.  If Georgia hadn't had Ray Goofus as HC, we would never had a NC.

I like Phil, really do, but as sands through the hourglass, these may be the last Days of His (Football) Life.  lol:

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Ummm, that can be debated. When James Banks was recuited, he was the NUMBER ONE QB coming out of high school that year. Too bad he ended up being a bust. And if I remember, Gerald Riggs was the number one RB coming out of high school. He also ended up being a bust. That's just bad luck, not bad recruiting. Tennessee is ALWAYS on the list of the top high school players every year across the nation. And if I remember right, we had the NUMBER ONE recruiting class this past year. So, hopefully we'll see the results of that in the next couple of years provided that we get the QB situation fixed.

We have had other high profile guys here, like Onterrio Smith (RB for Vikings), who ended up transfering because of coming in a class that featured 3 or 4 other big name backs. Cadillac Williams was almost here, but felt like he might get screwed, so he left too. Fulmer and his recruiting strategy got bitten in the azz. Those were bad judgement calls.

On one hand, nothing is better than good competition but sometimes that strategy backfires. Guys leave because they expect more than they get. Plus you never know when someone is going to get hurt. Nothing is guarnateed. I would recruit to be as deep as possible at every position. Especially the injury riddled seasons we've had the last several years.

I do agree that Fulmer's staff is not succeeding in getting the most of these guys. They are not disciplined and sometimes dont look motivated. These things go in cycles, so hopefully we'll be in the runnings again in the next few years. No team is on top forever. Just the law of averages.

We probably could use a few changes, but some ignorant people insist on blaming everything on Randy Sanders solely on play calling. And when it comes to motivation and concentration, he's at fault, BUT SO IS THE REST OF THE COACHING STAFF. The offensive coordinator does not pour all of his energy into one particular aspect of the offense. He is the play caller and organizer. RB, WR, QB, and OL coaches are just as liable for what's goin on with the players lack of performance as anyone else. That's why I get so frustrated with some of these fans that make simplified generalizations. Football teams are very complex.

Defense is complex as well, but it's a whole different animal and sometimes easier to get results if you have the "athletes". Offense isn't quite as easy. It takes more concentration and execution, and skill. Not to say Chavis's job is easier, but I hope you guys see the point I am trying to make.

 

[WA_Vol]

Originally posted by Liper@Oct 26, 2005 2:47 PM
Were the fumbles the players or the coaches?  That's tough; obviously the players are culpible.  But this answer goes deeper.

When players are motivated, trained, confident, and trying to WIN instead of NOT MAKE MISTAKES, they play better.  Now, that is a very subjective thing; but anyone who's played sports at a high level knows this is true.  Our players are UNPREPARED and SCARED OF MAKING MISTAKES.  That is the worst of all worlds.  This is the EXACT reason why Spurrier owned Foulmer's ass all of those years.  Not only are our players unsure of what to do, they are bemoaned to not mess up.  Not only do good coaches out-scheme and out-prepare us (our offense mostly), but their players tend to just flat-out play to more of their potential.

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this is a good post. I think your pointing to the lack of confidence that are players seem to play with especially in big games. They dont seem to be able to do whatever is needed to win.

The most obvious example of this is the lack of confidence Ainge seems to play with this year compared to last year. Last year he came out as a true freshman, so he had nothing to lose, and he played with adondonment. He was loose, confident, cool headed. This year the opposite, he seems tight, aiming balls at receivers instead of letting loose, and seems confused and unsure what to do at times.

 

[donsargegolf]

Originally posted by gonygonygo@Oct 26, 2005 6:05 PM
Ok, you have a point with that, but you cant fire a coach on that alone...  Give me a better argument besides that.  What about the play execution??  Or any of the other points i brought up...

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Poor play calling, poor execution, cannot get players on the field and cannot recuit... sounds like a case for the ave to me!?

 

[wilburnVol]

Fulmer has failed to recruit a high quality QB for several years now. I liked CClausen but Casey was more overachiever and had the luxury of playing for four years. If Crompton does not comeback from his injury (he should) and JimmyC goes to another SEC team (assuming we don't get lucky and get another Peyton in the process), we are going nowhere fast offensively.

Schaeffer ended up being part thug, part moron and Ainge for reasons clear to me, is the victim of a ridiculously bad call in the ND game which left him injured and now gun shy. Whether he returns to form or not will be a crap shoot. Now can you say A.J.Suggs, Cooter and Daniel Brooks tagalong whathisname.

Originally posted by gonygonygo@Oct 28, 2005 3:32 PM
Ummm, that can be debated.  When James Banks was recuited, he was the NUMBER ONE QB coming out of high school that year.  Too bad he ended up being a bust.

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Banks was never recruited as a QB even tho they lied and told him so. Other than that, thank you for the debate.

I think. :blink: