Recruiting Forum Football Talk III

[T Dog]

'Morning ya'll. Any news on any hires for the Best staff in America. VN be like

 

[Kingston Vol]

History is a really good teacher if we actually study and learn from it. 100% agree.

This thinking is correct: if you have A+ development, you can win with C+ classes.

However, my issue is this exact same line of thinking was used when both Butch and Pruitt were hired.

We expected Butch to be a bad recruiter because he had never been in the SEC but he turned out to be pretty good at selling the university - just couldn’t evaluate and develop SEC talent.

We expected Pruitt to be a great recruiter and when the 2018 and 2019 classes were lackluster we ran with “these guys know how to teach football we’ll be fine.”

I guess the point I’m trying to make is, we are assuming Heupel is a great developer of talent, but with little evidence to support it. We’re fans and we want things to be, so we act like they are.

None of these points means we won’t be successful and win more than we lose under Heupel, but when someone like @de1conley says they are concerned about recruiting, it’s a legitimate concern. In the absence of knowing Heupel is an elite developer, it makes sense that we want/need to recruit at an elite level immediately to give ourselves some wiggle room.

B development with C+ recruiting will win 6 games a year and we’ll be doing this again in 2024.

 

[BruinVol]

We aren’t going to sniff the top 10 in recruiting for a long time and the coach doesn’t matter.
It’s because of the NCAA mess.
Coaches will use it against us in a serious way and we won’t be able to operate anywhere close to the Gray areas of the rules.

15-25 type classes the next 5-7 years

 

[Smokey'sHandler]

I expect this hire to be horrific tbh. He was 7th in the AAC in recruiting this past season and his teams got worse each year. I’m not expecting much but I hope for the best

Think about it though he was 7th in his conference he finished 1st, 3rd, and 3rd in his conference. This tells me he is being successful with lesser talent.

We have had coaches consistently finishing 7th or better in recruiting and having our teams being one of the worst performing. I will take 7th every class (top 15-20 nationally) if it means a top 3 finish in conference.

 

[Deebowbear]

Are we going to hire a DC anytime soon, thought we would have before now. Figured your coordinators Would be first hired.

 

[BIGORANGEBUBBA]

Ron top 15 -25 won’t help you win here. You hv to be top 5-7 to compete in the SEC.

Because that has worked so well the previous 15 years

 

[brentcontractor]

I think Heupel would have already hired a DC if Steele was not already here. Makes it not clean. Same with Tee. If Tee was not the 98 champ quarterback, he would already be released. Like anything, politics are involved. Heupel is drinking from a fire hose.

 

[GiggerVol]

Not near a radio and too much to do but will be interesting to hear Mathew's takes and opinions on his Big Orange Sunday broadcast this morning. I wonder where he will get all his intel now that his good friend and buddy Fulmer is out of the picture. I know he's a big Steele guy though.

 

[9876543vol]

Mizzou won the East and went to the cotton bowl in 2013-2014 with a bunch of 3 stars

Dan Mullen won 8-9 games a year at Mississippi State with almost nothing

Having to have elite recruits to compete is only true if you have mediocre coaches (ex: UGA)

Exactly, Missouri won the East twice with top 40 talent!

 

[Kingston Vol]

I think Heupel would have already hired a DC if Steele was not already here. Makes it not clean. Same with Tee. If Tee was not the 98 champ quarterback, he would already be released. Like anything, politics are involved. Heupel is drinking from a fire hose.

Tee is already gone.

 

[DarthVol1]

Not near a radio and too much to do but will be interesting to hear Mathew's takes and opinions on his Big Orange Sunday broadcast this morning. I wonder where he will get all his intel now that his good friend and buddy Fulmer is out of the picture. I know he's a big Steele guy though.

Making it sound like Steele is going to be the DC. Heavily hinting at it.

 

[TrippieRedd]

Ron top 15 -25 won’t help you win here. You hv to be top 5-7 to compete in the SEC.

No offense, but no ****.

You’re mad at the fact we got a coach that can actually get us back to bowl games.

We have been IRRELEVANT for 15 years and you’re here talking about competing in the East? Lol, how about you support the coach, quit crying over Tee, and we can get back to STABILITY, rather than bitching about not being able to compete for the East year 1.

 

[Deebowbear]

Not near a radio and too much to do but will be interesting to hear Mathew's takes and opinions on his Big Orange Sunday broadcast this morning. I wonder where he will get all his intel now that his good friend and buddy Fulmer is out of the picture. I know he's a big Steele guy though.

That’s why we don’t need Steele and tee here Fulmer guys

 

[Vols4us]

This thinking is correct: if you have A+ development, you can win with C+ classes.

However, my issue is this exact same line of thinking was used when both Butch and Pruitt were hired.

We expected Butch to be a bad recruiter because he had never been in the SEC but he turned out to be pretty good at selling the university - just couldn’t evaluate and develop SEC talent.

We expected Pruitt to be a great recruiter and when the 2018 and 2019 classes were lackluster we ran with “these guys know how to teach football we’ll be fine.”

I guess the point I’m trying to make is, we are assuming Heupel is a great developer of talent, but with little evidence to support it. We’re fans and we want things to be, so we act like they are.

None of these points means we won’t be successful and win more than we lose under Heupel, but when someone like @de1conley says they are concerned about recruiting, it’s a legitimate concern. In the absence of knowing Heupel is an elite developer, it makes sense that we want/need to recruit at an elite level immediately to give ourselves some wiggle room.

B development with C+ recruiting will win 6 games a year and we’ll be doing this again in 2024.

Good post and valid points, IMO. There should always be counter arguments IMO. We are assuming he is a developer offensively because we have a long history to observe his progression as a coach. In a previous post I point out the defensive problems at UCF have the common denominators of Randy Shannon (and Willie Martinez). Allegedly, unknown for sure, Shannon was given to him by DW. Don't know why he would be there for three seasons.

That being said, I see good development with what CJH could control. How did UCF do against better teams and did they keep the hammer down against who they should beat? How did Mizzou's O do against better teams? I see QB development and progression. The wild card continues to be D staff selections IMO. Don't know. But it could determine the fate of his tenure.

I am looking for trends as a coach and person - not hard numbers and stats. Already know those. Does the guy have the overall acumen to communicate to his employer, staff, players, fan base, etc. the vision/mission as well as daily stuff? Can he build consensus with a large majority of the people he interacts with daily? That has not happened on the hill in forever. Does he have the system and schemes to compete at a high level and are they adaptable to the roster he does have and can attract here? Does he have the desire to compete his brains out? He did as a player, think he has a coach. Does he have the ability to adjust on the fly in game conditions? Does he man up in adversity or blame others? Does he reflect the personal and professional values we fans want as well as his employer? That sort of thing. I firmly believe those type points determine ultimate success and failure of any coach.

Dools was a loser Day 1. I had first person observations of him in direct dialog a few months after he was hired. He lacked most of the points I made above. Botch was a salesman and when adversity hit everybody and everything else in the world was at fault. He was a marshmallow with the players - especially with his pets. He did not have elite level schemes. By the time of my last visit to a UT camp practice with a VFL friend he had turned into a crazed paranoid doofus. We were sold an image of a old school, southern football coach/teacher with Pruitt. When in fact, he had zero ability to communicate and build consensus with others. We all thought Fulmer would smooth the rough edges and grow him as a coach and person. In fact, he enabled it and made things worse. We now know he had none of the points I made above.

All three of those very different guys had one thing in common. Control issues. They were micro managers of minutia. They had no overall vision. Time will tell with CJH, but at this point I see a bigger picture guy. Way too early to confirm it. Personally, I have made the choice to trust the new blood that has been pumped into the program by DW and JH until proven otherwise. But eyes wide open.

 

[GiggerVol]

Making it sound like Steele is going to be the DC. Heavily hinting at it.

You tuning in to the show? If so, keep us updated on his takes of significance.

 

[Sleegro]

H-E-U-P-E-L. Heupel. Not that I think any of you need this, I’m just putting it out there for future reference and education.

E before U except after brexit as the old saying goes.

 

[GiggerVol]

That’s why we don’t need Steele and tee here Fulmer guys

I personally wouldn't be disappointed with Steele. Has experience running a defense in conjunction with fast-paced offenses, can recruit well, and helps get Garner here as well.

 

[TrippieRedd]

What is Auburn’s record with JH as Head Coach instead of Gus the last 3 years?

We have the same type athletes and around the same recruiting average. I bet he wins 1-2 more games each year.

East is easier.

 

[DarthVol1]

You tuning in to the show? If so, keep us updated on his takes of significance.

Said we had a "football coaching" problem, not a "athletics dept" problem. So defending uncle Phil in a passive aggressive way. Talking about expecting a lot of transfers from the team, even those that are still enrolled and on the team now.

 

[TrippieRedd]

If someone calls into Matthews show, calls him a dumb old bitch, and hangs up, I’ll venmo you $100.

 

[Sleegro]

Good post and valid points, IMO. There should always be counter arguments IMO. We are assuming he is a developer offensively because we have a long history to observe his progression as a coach. In a previous post I point out the defensive problems at UCF have the common denominators of Randy Shannon (and Willie Martinez). Allegedly, unknown for sure, Shannon was given to him by DW. Don't know why he would be there for three seasons.

That being said, I see good development with what CJH could control. How did UCF do against better teams and did they keep the hammer down against who they should beat? How did Mizzou's O do against better teams? I see QB development and progression. The wild card continues to be D staff selections IMO. Don't know. But it could determine the fate of his tenure.

I am looking for trends as a coach and person - not hard numbers and stats. Already know those. Does the guy have the overall acumen to communicate to his employer, staff, players, fan base, etc. the vision/mission as well as daily stuff? Can he build consensus with a large majority of the people he interacts with daily? That has not happened on the hill in forever. Does he have the system and schemes to compete at a high level and are they adaptable to the roster he does have and can attract here? Does he have the desire to compete his brains out? He did as a player, think he has a coach. Does he have the ability to adjust on the fly in game conditions? Does he man up in adversity or blame others? Does he reflect the personal and professional values we fans want as well as his employer? That sort of thing. I firmly believe those type points determine ultimate success and failure of any coach.

Dools was a loser Day 1. I had first person observations of him in direct dialog a few months after he was hired. He lacked most of the points I made above. Botch was a salesman and when adversity hit everybody and everything else in the world was at fault. He was a marshmallow with the players - especially with his pets. He did not have elite level schemes. By the time of my last visit to a UT camp practice with a VFL friend he had turned into a crazed paranoid doofus. We were sold an image of a old school, southern football coach/teacher with Pruitt. When in fact, he had zero ability to communicate and build consensus with others. We all thought Fulmer would smooth the rough edges and grow him as a coach and person. In fact, he enabled it and made things worse. We now know he had none of the points I made above.

All three of those very different guys had one thing in common. Control issues. They were micro managers of minutia. They had no overall vision. Time will tell with CJH, but at this point I see a bigger picture guy. Way too early to confirm it. Personally, I have made the choice to trust the new blood that has been pumped into the program by DW and JH until proven otherwise. But eyes wide open.

I don't think Shannon was pushed on Heupel really. It was considered a great hire to get him from Florida to UCF. His system obviously wasn't a great fit with the offense but he was kept because of his recruiting.

 

[Vols4us]

Personally, I want zero players on this team that do not deeply desire to be orange blooded Vols. Show the door to those who do not. I would rather they plan an entire first season with walk-ons than play guys who do not want to be VFL's with all their hearts. I am over the mercenary approach.

Being an orange blooded VFL and seeking to be in the NFL are not not mutually exclusive desires. At one time UT had more NFL player alums than every school in the nation with the possible exception of USC.

 

[Vols4us]

I don't think Shannon was pushed on Heupel really. It was considered a great hire to get him from Florida to UCF. His system obviously wasn't a great fit with the offense but he was kept because of his recruiting.

If so, they went by rep instead of performance.

 

[DarthVol1]

Said we had a "football coaching" problem, not a "athletics dept" problem. So defending uncle Phil in a passive aggressive way. Talking about expecting a lot of transfers from the team, even those that are still enrolled and on the team now.

Then spent fair amount of time saying the last several coaches have done really sorry job of recruiting TN players. Sorry relationships with the middle TN high schools. Hopes that new coaches realize they have to get those repaired. Now flipping to BB talking to Bill Justis. Sorry, Trippie, no phone calls!

 

[drvenner]

I thought that was the best BB game all year the BB Vols have played this whole year. They shot lights out, they played great defense, they even hit free throws and they hustled and left it all out on the floor diving for loose balls. Wow! This is the real team I envisioned with the talent we have this year. If they play like this, they can beat any team in the country and yes I mean Gonzaga and Baylor or anybody.

2nd did anyone catch when DIcky V was talking about former Temple Coach John Chaney recent passing and history and John Thompson? Poor Dicky V literally started crying on live TV. I thought the co-announcer did a good job catching this and he just started talking and talking until Dicky V could regain his composure. Sad moment

It was a great tribute and you could tell he really cared for those coaches. Agree, very sad moment.