Recruiting Forum Football Talk XXIX

[Daloth]

It's not but you can believe that if you want. I had that discussion yesterday so you can just go back and read those posts. I'm not rehashing.

Georgia still has more talent than us and we are pretty even with Florida.

Bama, LSU, Texas A&M, Auburn and Ole Miss all are as/more talent as the Vols.

The only team of these more talented than us for sure is Bama. The closest is A&M. LSU is iffy because of their QB/offense situation as a whole minus Fournette. Florida is even worse than LSU because of their Offense but their defense is good. Auburn and Ole Miss don't even belong in this discussion.

Tennessee, talent and experience wise, is a top 5 team. Period. These coaches have reduced them to nothing. That alone is an impressive feat not even Dooley could achieve. Because Dooley never had talent like this.

 

[WriterVol]

What have I excused?

Give up, Ziti. They aren't even paying attention to the actual conversation.

They think our discussion about talent and results is somehow trying to excuse any fault by Butch Jones.

Let me try just one last time. No. One. Is. Excusing. The. Bad. Loss. To. South. Carolina.

It's a bad loss even using DAJ's very good (though admittedly not perfect) data. That's it. Literally, that is all.

 

[Pepe_Silvia]

The fact is that this team has looked good for a handful of quarters over this entire season. Butch is in year 4. Beating Appy State and Ohio should not be a struggle, and losing to a team like SC shouldn't even be considered a possibility.

 

[Atzar]

Nobody will ever win this debate anyway.

Time will settle it. Maybe Butch tanks. There will be a few people saying "I told you so", but mostly people will just be pissed that we need another new coach and probably another rebuilding period. Or maybe Butch wins the SEC next year. There will be a few people saying "I told you so", but mostly people will just be happy to have a very good football team again.

In the meantime, this is all circular until we get a new batch of data to argue about. Which, thankfully, happens tomorrow.

I don't think I've ever looked forward to a midseason date with a FCS school this much...

 

[jave36]

It does even out. Dillon Bates is scout team. Dobbs can't throw. Preston Williams wasn't a contributor. The list goes on.

List our starters side by side with theirs, ours are better overall.

 

[SSVol]

Kinda feels like the period just after Arky last year. We can only hope that the rest of the season follows that pattern.

 

[Catbone]

No.

Losing to SC was like opening an LV bag and seeing nothing but garbage inside.

An OC that expired in 99.

A WR coach that hasn't developed a Go-To WR or a 1000 yd WR in 4 years.

A OL coach that had his guys manhandled by small kids from APP St and OHIO

One of the worst QB's in the SEC

A quitter RB that was supposed to be a star and 1st round NFL RB... lol

A LB coach that had to play a walk on because he won't or can't develop the scholarship players he has.

Losing to SC just exposed how underwhelming our coaching staff really is.

This season has been an utter failure.

Can't argue with most of that

 

[Nashvegas31]

Warrior giving up a TD is on the coaches. He should have played all year and their conservative ass wouldn't play him.

This x 100. That's a mistake he would have already made and corrected of played earlier in season instead we waited until we had no choice and it was a critical spot

 

[BJHSVol]

The only team of these more talented than us for sure is Bama. The closest is A&M. LSU is iffy because of their QB/offense situation as a whole minus Fournette. Florida is even worse than LSU because of their Offense but their defense is good. Auburn and Ole Miss don't even belong in this discussion.

Tennessee, talent and experience wise, is a top 5 team. Period. These coaches have reduced them to nothing. That alone is an impressive feat not even Dooley could achieve. Because Dooley never had talent like this.

That's delusional. Period. In what world does 3 top 10 classes and 1 top 15 class make a top 5 team. Compared to teams that have consistent top 10 classes for the past decade.

Saying Auburn isn't even in the discussion is absurd. Besides QB there isn't a position group that we have that is head and shoulders above there's, and based on the past few games that's debatable.

LSU literally has set school records on offense every game since Miles has been fired so I don't see how you say they have an issue

 

[butchna]

I like that. Outwinning someone is a good way to describe a hail mary. :yes:

Name a famous Hail Mary that didn't result in a win.

 

[chavisut]

Depth, it's all about depth. UGA has 15 years of Richt recruiting in or around the top 10. Fulmer, Kiffin, and Dooley left our cupboards bare. Butch has done a pretty good job recruiting talent, but has not been able to build sustained depth, especially at OL, DT and LB.

notsureifserious

 

[WriterVol]

Nobody will ever win this debate anyway.

Time will settle it. Maybe Butch tanks. There will be a few people saying "I told you so", but mostly people will just be pissed that we need another new coach and probably another rebuilding period. Or maybe Butch wins the SEC next year. There will be a few people saying "I told you so", but mostly people will just be happy to have a very good football team again.

In the meantime, this is all circular until we get a new batch of data to argue about. Which, thankfully, happens tomorrow.

I don't think I've ever looked forward to a midseason date with a FCS school this much...

That's the thing though. I wanted to discuss the merits of DAJ's metrics outside of any "blame/don't blame Butch" discussion. My interest was completely outside of that, but I guess it's too close to the situation to allow it.

DAJ's chart was posted in May, and has predicted every record in the SEC within a game, except for Georgia. They are doing much worse than their talent metric suggests.

DAJ's data suggests TN should be 9-3. They are within that expectation, but it suggested losing to a worse than expected Georgia and beating a bad South Carolina team. It didn't happen that way, and we all know that.

Georgia is punching below their weight. No one is suggesting otherwise. I mean, even if you don't value Georgia's talent level as much as the Rivals data DAJ is using, you gotta admit Smart is not getting enough out of them--as the data suggests.

DAJ's data doesn't help Jones at all. If anything, it supports the notion that the team is under-performing despite having a record within his predictions.

Is this making sense to anyone?

 

[The Orange Pants]

It takes seven years to build a program, guys. We can't judge him for another three years.

 

[Pepe_Silvia]

It takes seven years to build a program, guys. We can't judge him for another three years.

Lifetime contract ftw

 

[theutvolunteers]

It takes seven years to build a program, guys. We can't judge him for another three years.

Are you ready to fire him?

 

[chavisut]

Y'all, everything was overrated. Except Butch Jones. He is awesome and totally faultless. Brick by brick, the process, etc.

Side not. Can't believe I didn't catch Sunny reference. Love that show!

 

[JohnD13]

The only team of these more talented than us for sure is Bama. The closest is A&M. LSU is iffy because of their QB/offense situation as a whole minus Fournette. Florida is even worse than LSU because of their Offense but their defense is good. Auburn and Ole Miss don't even belong in this discussion.

Tennessee, talent and experience wise, is a top 5 team. Period. These coaches have reduced them to nothing. That alone is an impressive feat not even Dooley could achieve. Because Dooley never had talent like this.

You obviously know little about football. Congratulations

 

[Vols4us]

Alrighty then. I was trying to follow the thinking until I read that UGA has more talent than UT. Then I think it went to more experience than UT, which I don't buy into either. For the most part the players that replaced the injured starters were not true freshmen and had played. Maybe Buchanan, which was really dumb to trot him out there as well. Who won the game after silly TO's, a boatload of starters out, and only playing one half on the road? For the second year in a row. Kills the more talent argument.

aTm is equal to possibly less on talent. LSU and Bama have more. We were third in talent going in and clearly first in the east. So 10-2 because under Butch they always lose at least one they shouldn't.

Like others, I agree the USCe loss was bad. The problem is some of us see the strong potential for more losses. DT has blown up. LB is still wrong. Who plays one of the CB positions? Hurd is gone. O-line is still nicked up. Dobbs has not proven he can play a whole game without doing something, sometimes multiple somethings, really stupid. And then there is Debored.

 

[butchna]

You mean Butch. Stones.

I'd say you've been waiting to mock that...but you jumped out the gate mocking anything the fans were positive about. :good!:

 

[Rishvol]

Sooooo when did we lose to Georgia?

 

[VolGee4]

Start of the season:

Bama has a better roster than us.

That is it.

A&M and maybe LSU are even with us (which I think our roster is better before injuries).

10-2 was THE expectation. Anything else is underachieving. Period.

We have (had with injuries) very good talent, but you are undervaluing Texas A&M. Just look at their rankings. Their starting defense only has two 3 stars, and the rest are 4 and 5 stars. Their entire defensive front are 4 star players. Their defensive 2 deep is littered with some more 3 stars.

On offense, you know the talent. Talent wise, they probably have the best group of receivers in the country. RB Williams was a 4 star. The middle of their OL is young and lower rated, but they have two 4 star bookend tackles who we wanted.

All that said, we could still live with losses to just Bama and A&M.

 

[The Orange Pants]

Are you ready to fire him?

No because I know our administration will botch it.

I'm ready for garbage like playing bums like Ohio or App St down to the wire to end.

I'm ready for us to line up and beat the brakes off of lesser opponents. I'm not talking eventually pull away by a few scores. I mean straight up domination from the beginning.

I'm ready for us to utilize the talent on this roster.

I'm ready for Tennessee Football to be back.

I'm sick of talking about next year. Enough is enough. We have talent and we have an opportunity. Yet AGAIN we will squander it and watch UF go to Atlanta.

 

[LA Vol]

I'm looking at data as only part of the equation. At the beginning of the season, the team set a goal to win the SECE and this goal was in line with most predictive models. So expectations were created and everyone was in agreement that the expectations were reasonable and attainable.

Whether the team went 12-0, 11-1 or 10-2, the #1 goal of winning the SECE was realistic. It's not statistically impossible at 9-3... but we're probably down to a single digit probability. The game this weekend doesn't really affect our season, but the UK game does. If Arky beats UF and UK beats UGA, it will matter very, very much.

 

[VolGee4]

I'm looking at data as only part of the equation. At the beginning of the season, the team set a goal to win the SECE and this goal was in line with most predictive models. So expectations were created and everyone was in agreement that the expectations were reasonable and attainable.

Whether the team went 12-0, 11-1 or 10-2, the #1 goal of winning the SECE was realistic. It's not statistically impossible at 9-3... but we're probably down to a single digit probability. The game this weekend doesn't really affect our season, but the UK game does. If Arky beats UF and UK beats UGA, it will matter very, very much.

FPI said 19% chance.

 

[Atzar]

Well for what it's worth, we're all ready for Tennessee football to be back. That's the one thing we all have in common.

Nobody agrees on much of anything else, but we all want the same thing.