Recruiting Forum Off Topic Thread III

[Weezer]

Not all murder requires premeditation, and many DA’s will tell you premeditation can form in an instant. I’m not saying the officer should have been charged with premeditated murder, but I am guessing third degree murder in Minnesota just requires an intentional act and not necessarily premeditation. I think you could get a conviction on that.

I had a thought, and though I know it would never be considered, at what point should excessive force become felony assault? If that were to happen, and I know it won't happen, it would become felony murder. IIRC you're a lawyer. Do you think being able to charge cops who use excessive force with felony assault would give them pause in how far they push? I know police have a tough job, and I realize some perpetrators require more physical force to apprehend, but in a case like this where the officer obviously pushed past reasonable limits, should he be able to be charged, even if the subject doesn't die? JMO, but it's important that the people who are supposed to enforce the law adhere to the law themselves. Too many times I've ran into cops who think they define the law, and are somehow immune to it. They forget the law applies to them as well.

 

[engineerVOL]

I had a thought, and though I know it would never be considered, at what point should excessive force become felony assault? If that were to happen, and I know it won't happen, it would become felony murder. IIRC you're a lawyer. Do you think being able to charge cops who use excessive force with felony assault would give them pause in how far they push? I know police have a tough job, and I realize some perpetrators require more physical force to apprehend, but in a case like this where the officer obviously pushed past reasonable limits, should he be able to be charged, even if the subject doesn't die? JMO, but it's important that the people who are supposed to enforce the law adhere to the law themselves. Too many times I've ran into cops who think they define the law, and are somehow immune to it. They forget the law applies to them as well.

Would like to see some police reform. For instance, drop the military accoutrements, tanks, etc.

 

[Devo182]

“Don’t burn your own home in hatred of your enemies.”
Powerful speech.

He's a very powerful speaker. And if you've ever seen him in an interview he just seems like the biggest softie and the nicest guy. He's awesome

 

[ColoradoVol8]

This is inspiring

 

[Devo182]

LOL literally none of those are Trump's fault. Maybe move to China or Africa or India I'm sure you'll like it there better!

Didn't appear he was saying that. He listed all the bad things that were happening. And saying despite a time of great strife, the POTUS is still acting like a child and being divisive. Guy needs to grow TF up, get off Twitter, and act like a president.

Was talking to my parents last night camping. Both voted for Trump and are now disgusted by him. My mom, a lifelong elementary school teacher, accurately perceived and his described him as a 5 year old bully.

 

[SweetasSoda]

I agree with some of what you say, but not all. Sometimes people lead with the "I'm not racist" comment because society has created this image that all white people must be inherently racist. It goes hand in hand with "white privilege". And you left off "white guilt" which we are all encouraged to feel, even though we've never committed any racist acts. Apparently, some believe we should carry the possible guilt of our ancestors because of the color of our skin. I'll refer back to Dr. King on this issue, judge me by my character, not by the color of my skin. And bigotry is not a one way street. I've seen and heard plenty of black people who hated whites, but rather than condemn that hate, it's often justified as "they have reason". Stupidest argument I've ever heard if we ever hope to have equality and peace. All people must put aside skin color as a reason to hate. And the same is true of sexuality, religion, politics...We, as a people, need to learn to let people be themselves, and be content in who we are rather than projecting ourselves on to others. It's okay to be different, to believe different, to live different. We don't have to be the same. But ALL sides need to act with reason, not just one side, which you seem to suggest. I agree that people need to learn to talk to each other, that we need to put thought in our words, but that does not just apply to white people. That applies to ALL people. And sometimes, you have to have patience and realize no offense is intended, because sometimes people didn't put enough thought into their words. It's a give and take of all parties involved.

TY...I read ahead to see if anyone answered him. I do say I am not a racist...because I am not a racist! I believe we are all one race...the human race. There have always been racists, and even groups within a race, that thought they were better. Look at the Japanese in WWII. Or the Germans who thought they could create a superior race of blonde haired/blue eyed humans! I started off teaching WWII with my 5th graders by saying there were studies showing that those with blonde hair/blue eyes were smarter. Those like that would giggle and puff up a little while the rest would blow, get angry and protest. I would let it go on for a while before I would say that wasn't true, but the Germans were taught that it was. It really made a difference when they were shown what the Germans became capable of doing because they thought they were the superior "white" race. The same with the Japanese believing they were the superior "Asain" race. When man does not value the "human race" with each and every person as being valued, then we abuse and destroy one another. If you look at someone and see a skin color instead of a person, you are being a racist. Look at the person. Value them because they are a human.

 

[Weezer]

Would like to see some police reform. For instance, drop the military accoutrements, tanks, etc.

There's a time and place for certain equipment, but I think just having it makes them think they need to use it. Not every situation requires a heavy hand. Making those decisions is definitely something they need more training in. Decision making in general, from top to bottom of police forces, is something that needs to be addressed and receive more training in.

 

[VolGee4]

I had a thought, and though I know it would never be considered, at what point should excessive force become felony assault? If that were to happen, and I know it won't happen, it would become felony murder. IIRC you're a lawyer. Do you think being able to charge cops who use excessive force with felony assault would give them pause in how far they push? I know police have a tough job, and I realize some perpetrators require more physical force to apprehend, but in a case like this where the officer obviously pushed past reasonable limits, should he be able to be charged, even if the subject doesn't die? JMO, but it's important that the people who are supposed to enforce the law adhere to the law themselves. Too many times I've ran into cops who think they define the law, and are somehow immune to it. They forget the law applies to them as well.

Absolutely, I think an act of excessive force can be charged as assault. You are right that you don’t see it a lot. But there are several issues in play. First, not all assaults are felonies. In TN, a felony assault essentially has to involve serious bodily injury or being put in fear by a weapon. Serious bodily injury has been defined in case law as “protracted or permanent disfigurement.” If an officer roughs someone up a bit and just leaves bruises, then it’s not really a felony unless they consider a civil rights violation in federal court.

Second, excessive force is in the eye of the beholder. Depends on facts and circumstances. How unruly (or not) does the defendant victim have to be? If a case is even close, DA’s are going to support their officer because not supporting the police in a rather close case (or even not) can cause political issues. Yes, we elect our DA’s in TN.

Finally, unless you have video, which we now have more than ever (even body cams), you have to believe a defendant victim who may (or may not) have a record and who was most likely committing a crime in the first place. Incidents that end in death (unfortunately) should be easier to prosecute because many of us know the officer’s actions in this case were outrageous and unreasonable.

There has been some precedence with this after 6 officers were charged in the Freddie Gray case where they didn’t transport him properly, and he died of injuries. I believe 3 of the officers were acquitted and the others had charges dropped.

 

[Weezer]

Didn't appear he was saying that. He listed all the bad things that were happening. And saying despite a time of great strife, the POTUS is still acting like a child and being divisive. Guy needs to grow TF up, get off Twitter, and act like a president.

Was talking to my parents last night camping. Both voted for Trump and are now disgusted by him. My mom, a lifelong elementary school teacher, accurately perceived and his described him as a 5 year old bully.

Do not disagree. The problem is, that is what politics have become in this country. We have a bunch of people who act like kids running this country, and it's not just one sided. Both parties act like this. I would love to have a GOOD choice for President. The problem is, we're given two bad choices and left to decide which one is the lesser of two evils. Last election, it was Hillary and Trump. This election, it's Trump and Biden. I'm sorry, but neither one is a good choice. You may feel one is a better choice, depending on your politics, but neither one is a good choice.

 

[Weezer]

Absolutely, I think an act of excessive force can be charged as assault. You are right that you don’t see it a lot. But there are several issues in play. First, not all assaults are felonies. In TN, a felony assault essentially has to involve serious bodily injury or being put in fear by a weapon. Serious bodily injury has been defined in case law as “protracted or permanent disfigurement.” If an officer roughs someone up a bit and just leaves bruises, then it’s not really a felony unless they consider a civil rights violation in federal court.

Second, excessive force is in the eye of the beholder. Depends on facts and circumstances. How unruly (or not) does the defendant victim have to be? If a case is even close, DA’s are going to support their officer because not supporting the police in a rather close case (or even not) can cause political issues. Yes, we elect our DA’s in TN.

Finally, unless you have video, which we now have more than ever (even body cams), you have to believe a defendant victim who may (or may not) have a record and who was most likely committing a crime in the first place. Incidents that end in death (unfortunately) should be easier to prosecute because many of us know the officer’s actions in this case were outrageous and unreasonable.

There has been some precedence with this after 6 officers were charged in the Freddie Gray case where they didn’t transport him properly, and he died of injuries. I believe 3 of the officers were acquitted and the others had charges dropped.

In a case like this, where the officer had his knee on the guy's neck for like 9 minutes, it would seem to me like that would be felony assault because it's reasonable to think their is severe bodily harm being done, especially when the victim is saying he can't breathe. It was reckless disregard for the well being of another individual. This, of course, is JMO, but I would not be opposed to more severe charges.

 

[SSVol]

Black deaths by LEO occur at twice their population representation (~22% and 13% respectively), but that is still about half of their prison representation (40%). Black incarceration is another problem for another discussion, but those stats suggest that a white guy has a greater chance of being killed on the way to prison than a black guy. And to put all of this in perspective, 1100 people were killed by LEOs last year; 235 were black. While one killed without cause is one too many, I would assume that out of 235 killed, the number killed without cause is pretty low. If this gets out of hand, far more than that will die as a function of these riots.

 

[SweetasSoda]

Black deaths by LEO occur at twice their population representation (~22% and 13% respectively), but that is still about half of their prison representation (40%). Black incarceration is another problem for another discussion, but those stats suggest that a white guy has a greater chance of being killed on the way to prison than a black guy. And to put all of this in perspective, 1100 people were killed by LEOs last year; 235 were black. While one killed without cause is one too many, I would assume that out of 235 killed, the number killed without cause is pretty low. If this gets out of hand, far more than that will die as a function of these riots.

This is just so sad.

 

[Crazy Ivan]

Not all murder requires premeditation, and many DA’s will tell you premeditation can form in an instant. I’m not saying the officer should have been charged with premeditated murder, but I am guessing third degree murder in Minnesota just requires an intentional act and not necessarily premeditation. I think you could get a conviction on that.

Well, I am definitely not a lawyer to be sure, but I know 2nd degree doesn't require premeditation. However, even with 2nd degree murder I think the state would still have to prove intent to murder. Had the autopsy report shown that Mr Floyd died of asphyxiation, or a broken neck, then it might be possible to make a case that there was indeed intent to kill, but since the report apparently showed he died of a heart attack, it will be much harder to prove that the cop knew that putting his knee on the victim's neck would lead to his having a heart attack.

But again, I stress that I am not a lawyer so am only speculating.

 

[Weezer]

Well, I am definitely not a lawyer to be sure, but I know 2nd degree doesn't require premeditation. However, even with 2nd degree murder I think the state would still have to prove intent to murder. Had the autopsy report shown that Mr Floyd died of asphyxiation, or a broken neck, then it might be possible to make a case that there was indeed intent to kill, but since the report apparently showed he died of a heart attack, it will be much harder to prove that the cop knew that putting his knee on the victim's neck would lead to his having a heart attack.

But again, I stress that I am not a lawyer so am only speculating.

I think it depends on how it's defined in each state. Second degree murder does not always have to have intent, if I have read correctly. It can also be charged if someone has engaged in conduct in which death was a reasonable possibility. But I'm not a lawyer either. I'm just trying to interpret what I've read.

 

[VolGee4]

Well, I am definitely not a lawyer to be sure, but I know 2nd degree doesn't require premeditation. However, even with 2nd degree murder I think the state would still have to prove intent to murder. Had the autopsy report shown that Mr Floyd died of asphyxiation, or a broken neck, then it might be possible to make a case that there was indeed intent to kill, but since the report apparently showed he died of a heart attack, it will be much harder to prove that the cop knew that putting his knee on the victim's neck would lead to his having a heart attack.

But again, I stress that I am not a lawyer so am only speculating.

You are correct that intent is a requirement. Second degree murder in TN is a knowing killing of another and that his actions could knowingly result in death. I think reasonable people could debate if the officer’s actions revealed a knowing killing or not. His actions were outrageous. I just had a discussion with a fellow friend and attorney the other day, and we didn’t see it the same way, and I was on the less severe side.

There is also a reckless homicide in TN (even less than manslaughter), and I could see a jury convict him of that, too.

 

[Crazy Ivan]

I think it depends on how it's defined in each state. Second degree murder does not always have to have intent, if I have read correctly. It can also be charged if someone has engaged in conduct in which death was a reasonable possibility. But I'm not a lawyer either. I'm just trying to interpret what I've read.

I suspect the reason Minnesota went with 3rd degree is because they know it will be hard to get a conviction on 1st or 2nd because they can't prove intent.

 

[Vols4us]

TY...I read ahead to see if anyone answered him. I do say I am not a racist...because I am not a racist! I believe we are all one race...the human race. There have always been racists, and even groups within a race, that thought they were better. Look at the Japanese in WWII. Or the Germans who thought they could create a superior race of blonde haired/blue eyed humans! I started off teaching WWII with my 5th graders by saying there were studies showing that those with blonde hair/blue eyes were smarter. Those like that would giggle and puff up a little while the rest would blow, get angry and protest. I would let it go on for a while before I would say that wasn't true, but the Germans were taught that it was. It really made a difference when they were shown what the Germans became capable of doing because they thought they were the superior "white" race. The same with the Japanese believing they were the superior "Asain" race. When man does not value the "human race" with each and every person as being valued, then we abuse and destroy one another. If you look at someone and see a skin color instead of a person, you are being a racist. Look at the person. Value them because they are a human.

Good post, SaS. Spot on in every regard. There's nothing new under the sun. Racism of any kind is just stupid. FWIW, it is impossible to meet the command of Christ to love one another stated in John 13:34 without accepting that we are all one and the same. Note: he said "must". That means no excuses and cut the rationalizations.

 

[SweetasSoda]

Good post, SaS. Spot on in every regard. There's nothing new under the sun. Racism of any kind is just stupid. FWIW, it is impossible to meet the command of Christ to love one another stated in John 13:34 without accepting that we are all one and the same. Note: he said "must". That means no excuses and cut the rationalizations.

He does reveal ourselves to us which makes it hard to look down on anyone. (If we allow it of course. )

 

[Vols4us]

The African American population needs to make positive strides to increase support for traditional marriage and being pro-life. Only malcontents would argue that two parent homes where children are born and raised are not better for their advancement in all aspects of life on this planet.

BLACK MARRIAGE | BlackDemographics.com

BlackGenocide.org | Abortion and the Black Community

Not long after the CRA of 1964 was the Vietnam ramp up, drugs ramp up, Roe v. Wade, and then severe economic hardship before PRR arrived on the scene. Draw your own conclusions.

Mine is that all choices and resulting actions have consequences. You can do what man tells you is right to do or you can do what the Lord says is right to do. Having personal rights and freedoms without moral restraint is usually not a good thing.

It matters not what the color of skin is in determining the above. The color of the skin seems very important to blacks and that is not mine to judge. There are white, yellow and brown grouping statistics and cultural norms that are not what they should be as well. The answer is for all groups to stop being groups and start being individuals that help and love one another without regard to them.

 

[Rishvol]

I think the mandatory quarantine has a hand in this also

 

[Jackcrevol]

Truthfully, the rioting and looting isn't even a black/white thing. Plenty of white people rioting and looting, and plenty of black people condemning the behavior. But I guess acknowledging that defeats the narrative we're expected to believe.

Why is everything a conspiracy theory? When did University become a negative thing? Man, ive had to step away for a day. This ish is nuts.

 

[MrWiz]

Didn't appear he was saying that. He listed all the bad things that were happening. And saying despite a time of great strife, the POTUS is still acting like a child and being divisive. Guy needs to grow TF up, get off Twitter, and act like a president.

Was talking to my parents last night camping. Both voted for Trump and are now disgusted by him. My mom, a lifelong elementary school teacher, accurately perceived and his described him as a 5 year old bully.

This is extremely accurate. I don’t blame Trump for these issues we are facing as a nation. And I try so hard to give him the benefit of the doubt but he keeps talking and tweeting like a bratty little child. He embarrasses me as an American and I voted for him in 2016.

 

[Ulysees E. McGill]

This isn't helping

So...stand by and watch them rampage, destroy, steal and murder..


That better?

 

[drvenner]

So...stand by and watch them rampage, destroy, steal and murder..


That better?

No.

 

[Ulysees E. McGill]

How do you think black people view silent white people when racism is being openly espoused right in front of them? Is the silence a form of approval? How do you think black people feel when there are known racist people on the police force. What you are advocating is for the oppressed people to be docile. You want black people to not act like "animals" so that you feel comfortable. Did you think people that were beating and lynching peaceful protesters in the 60s were acting like animals. The description of animalistic is an interesting choice of words.

I didn't mince words..they are animals, and you are an animal too if you defend it.

Interesting you bring up the 60s, the Serbs in Bosnia in the 90s brought up the past too, and used it to justify horrific genocide.