Recruiting forum off topic thread (no politics, covid, or hot button issues)

#15,108
#15,108
Glitch said:
Adam was standing there the whole time. His passivity and failure to lead his family in that situation caused the fall.
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How do you know Adam was standing there? Text does not say that
God never accused Adam of failing to lead his family.
Temptation and human disobedience caused the fall.
 
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#15,109
#15,109
Ace said:
How do you know Adam was standing there? Text does not say that
God never accused Adam of failing to lead his family.
Temptation and human disobedience caused the fall.
Click to expand...
15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

18 The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.”

19 Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals.

But for Adam[f] no suitable helper was found. 21 So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs[g] and then closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib[h] he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.

23 The man said,

“This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called ‘woman,’
for she was taken out of man.”
24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.

25 Adam and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.

The Fall​

3 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”

2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”

4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.




First off, God made man first and gave him the instructions concerning the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Woman was made second as a helper to man. It is very clear that God intended the man to be the leader of the human family group. Then in Chapter 3 when the woman is tempted by Satan and succumbs to temptation, the text clearly states that "She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it." Now, Eve was clearly aware of the prohibition on the fruit as she relays that to Satan in 3:2, so she certainly bears her share of responsibility. However, the text clearly states that her husband we with her and he obviously did nothing as he watched his helper being tempted to disobey God and succumbing to that temptation. Had he stepped into his role of spiritual leader of his family and rejected the passivity stance that he assumed, he could have led his wife to not disobey and stay in perfect relationship with God. Spiritual passivity from men and a failure to lead our families well is, in my opinion, one of the major shortcomings in our society. If men would step into their natural role as leaders and stop letting someone/something else fill that role for their family then our families would be in much better shape.


This was probably going to get moved here anyway, so I went ahead and pre-emptively moved it.
 
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#15,110
#15,110
Glitch said:
15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

18 The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.”

19 Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals.

But for Adam[f] no suitable helper was found. 21 So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs[g] and then closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib[h] he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.

23 The man said,

“This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called ‘woman,’
for she was taken out of man.”
24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.

25 Adam and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.

The Fall​

3 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”

2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”

4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.




First off, God made man first and gave him the instructions concerning the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Woman was made second as a helper to man. It is very clear that God intended the man to be the leader of the human family group. Then in Chapter 3 when the woman is tempted by Satan and succumbs to temptation, the text clearly states that "She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it." Now, Eve was clearly aware of the prohibition on the fruit as she relays that to Satan in 3:2, so she certainly bears her share of responsibility. However, the text clearly states that her husband we with her and he obviously did nothing as he watched his helper being tempted to disobey God and succumbing to that temptation. Had he stepped into his role of spiritual leader of his family and rejected the passivity stance that he assumed, he could have led his wife to not disobey and stay in perfect relationship with God. Spiritual passivity from men and a failure to lead our families well is, in my opinion, one of the major shortcomings in our society. If men would step into their natural role as leaders and stop letting someone/something else fill that role for their family then our families would be in much better shape.


This was probably going to get moved here anyway, so I went ahead and pre-emptively moved it.
Click to expand...
I am simply saying that the scripture does not say Adam was with Eve and the serpent at the same time. She was with the serpent and she was with Adam, but it does not give a time frame or say that she was with both simultaneously. I am not trying to start an argument, I am just simply acknowledging that Adam is never blamed for lack of leadership. He, along with Eve, are blamed and judged for disobedience.

I agree husbands need to provide Godly leadership to their families, but Adam is not accused by God of a failure to lead. There are several examples of lack of family leadership (OT Priest Eli, King David) in the Bible who are accused by God.
We are in 100% agreement concerning society’s need for strong Godly leadership and love by men.
 
#15,111
#15,111
Ace said:
I am simply saying that the scripture does not say Adam was with Eve and the serpent at the same time. She was with the serpent and she was with Adam, but it does not give a time frame or say that she was with both simultaneously. I am not trying to start an argument, I am just simply acknowledging that Adam is never blamed for lack of leadership. He, along with Eve, are blamed and judged for disobedience.

I agree husbands need to provide Godly leadership to their families, but Adam is not accused by God of a failure to lead. There are several examples of lack of family leadership (OT Priest Eli, King David) in the Bible who are accused by God.
We are in 100% agreement concerning society’s need for strong Godly leadership and love by men.
Click to expand...
It literally says that he was with her. Also, after they had eaten the fruit and were hiding from God, who does God seek out first. He knows what has happened, but He doesn't go to Eve. He calls out for Adam and has a conversation with him about what has happened. He then blames it on Eve and Eve blames Satan. If God did not hold Adam responsible for their failure, why was he the one God sought out first. If God blamed Eve, why wasn't she the one He questioned. It all has to do with hierarchy of responsibility. Adam was responsible to Eve and all of the creatures that God made. If for some reason he was not with her at the moment that she ate the fruit, he obviously did not impress upon her the severity of the rule that God had put in place and then to make matters worse he joined her in her sin. I am sorry, but the fall is very clearly Adam's fault and Adam is the one that God ultimately holds responsible for the fall. We may just have to agree to disagree here though.
 
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#15,116
#15,116
Glitch said:
It literally says that he was with her. Also, after they had eaten the fruit and were hiding from God, who does God seek out first. He knows what has happened, but He doesn't go to Eve. He calls out for Adam and has a conversation with him about what has happened. He then blames it on Eve and Eve blames Satan. If God did not hold Adam responsible for their failure, why was he the one God sought out first. If God blamed Eve, why wasn't she the one He questioned. It all has to do with hierarchy of responsibility. Adam was responsible to Eve and all of the creatures that God made. If for some reason he was not with her at the moment that she ate the fruit, he obviously did not impress upon her the severity of the rule that God had put in place and then to make matters worse he joined her in her sin. I am sorry, but the fall is very clearly Adam's fault and Adam is the one that God ultimately holds responsible for the fall. We may just have to agree to disagree here though.
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Bingo.

no TWSS.
 
#15,117
#15,117
Glitch said:
It literally says that he was with her. Also, after they had eaten the fruit and were hiding from God, who does God seek out first. He knows what has happened, but He doesn't go to Eve. He calls out for Adam and has a conversation with him about what has happened. He then blames it on Eve and Eve blames Satan. If God did not hold Adam responsible for their failure, why was he the one God sought out first. If God blamed Eve, why wasn't she the one He questioned. It all has to do with hierarchy of responsibility. Adam was responsible to Eve and all of the creatures that God made. If for some reason he was not with her at the moment that she ate the fruit, he obviously did not impress upon her the severity of the rule that God had put in place and then to make matters worse he joined her in her sin. I am sorry, but the fall is very clearly Adam's fault and Adam is the one that God ultimately holds responsible for the fall. We may just have to agree to disagree here though.
Click to expand...
It is conjecture to say Adam was with Eve and the serpent. The Bible does not tell us. We do not know how soon Adam ate the fruit. Many assume it was the same day. The text only says that Adam ate, then they realized they were naked and they hid. God then approached them in the cool of the day. We do not know whether this occurred on the same day Eve ate or a month later. There are no time markers. We do not know whether Adam told Eve to not eat of the fruit from the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil or if God told her. The Bible does not tell us.

I have not said Adam is not to blame. He did take of the fruit willfully as opposed to Eve being deceived by a heavenly being. Temptation and human disobedience caused the fall. Adam was tempted (persuaded) by Eve and he willfully disobeyed God.
Both Adam and Eve were cursed and removed from the garden. The serpent was cursed also.
 
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#15,118
#15,118
engineerVOL said:
Genesis 3:6… “… she also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it”
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But it does not say he was with her and the serpent. We are not told if he overheard their conversation. We can assume it, but it is not stated in the text
 
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#15,119
#15,119
rikberry31 said:
He never said Eve was cursed, He did to Adam and Satan.
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The text of Genesis 3:14-19 is actually a series of curses beginning with the serpent, moving to Eve and then to Adam. Only verse 14 uses the word “cursed” to the serpent directly, the series moves to Eve having pain in childbirth and then Adam experiencing toil and sweat. The ground is cursed in verse 17, but not Adam. Adam is not directly cursed in this passage. Yet, Adam and Eve are cursed indirectly along the serpent in the series of curses beginning in verse 14
 
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#15,120
#15,120
I want to be clear. I enjoy Biblical discussions. I do not intend any personal attacks. I enjoy VN. I have learned over the last 10 years that much of what I had assumed about the Bible was not textual. Instead it was traditional. Much of what we all believe is naturally based on the teaching and traditions we have each experienced in our past. I have made more of an effort to embrace the text of Scripture and its historical context to find the intending meaning of God’s Word.
 
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#15,121
#15,121
rikberry31 said:
Actually God blamed Adam.
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Then Adam was the one we should be praising.

But it still feels condescending. As if Eve was a dumb doll. Ofc the bible was written by men, so grain of salt and all that.

Either way, they should be praised, if people truly believe it and enjoy being a human.
 
#15,122
#15,122
Ace said:
It is conjecture to say Adam was with Eve and the serpent. The Bible does not tell us. We do not know how soon Adam ate the fruit. Many assume it was the same day. The text only says that Adam ate, then they realized they were naked and they hid. God then approached them in the cool of the day. We do not know whether this occurred on the same day Eve ate or a month later. There are no time markers. We do not know whether Adam told Eve to not eat of the fruit from the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil or if God told her. The Bible does not tell us.

I have not said Adam is not to blame. He did take of the fruit willfully as opposed to Eve being deceived by a heavenly being. Temptation and human disobedience caused the fall. Adam was tempted (persuaded) by Eve and he willfully disobeyed God.
Both Adam and Eve were cursed and removed from the garden. The serpent was cursed also.
Click to expand...
The Bible literally says that "she gave some to her husband who was with her". There is not conjecture to it. He was there. I don't understand where you are getting the notion that he wasn't standing right there with her. If anything, the Bible gives no indication that Adam was not right there with Eve while the temptation went down.
 
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#15,123
#15,123
Ace said:
The text of Genesis 3:14-19 is actually a series of curses beginning with the serpent, moving to Eve and then to Adam. Only verse 14 uses the word “cursed” to the serpent directly, the series moves to Eve having pain in childbirth and then Adam experiencing toil and sweat. The ground is cursed in verse 17, but not Adam. Adam is not directly cursed in this passage. Yet, Adam and Eve are cursed indirectly along the serpent in the series of curses beginning in verse 14
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“Cursed are you” He said to the serpent. “Cursed is the ground because of you “ He said to Adam. The word curse was never used to Eve. And in Romans “by one man sin entered the world.”
 
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#15,124
#15,124
Ace said:
But it does not say he was with her and the serpent. We are not told if he overheard their conversation. We can assume it, but it is not stated in the text
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Well you’ve piqued my interest so I went back and read it. It does clear as day say he was with her. Also, look at the series of events afterwards. Adam felt shame. Why would he feel shame if he assumed he was given non-forbidden fruit. He would have looked at Eve oddly like why are you hiding from God? No, he was just as ashamed.
 
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#15,125
#15,125
Ace said:
How do you know Adam was standing there? Text does not say that
God never accused Adam of failing to lead his family.
Temptation and human disobedience caused the fall.
Click to expand...
What I love about that exchange is that the serpent has to convince Eve that she can eat the fruit. “Did He really say you couldn’t eat any fruit? You won’t die if you eat that fruit. God doesn’t want you to eat them because you’ll be like Him.”

She was convinced. Tree was beautiful; fruit was delicious; and she wanted the wisdom.

Adam - on the other hand - “Then she gave some to her husband, who was with her too, and he ate it.”

Men: Food? Cool. I’ll eat it.
 
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