Religious debate (split from main board)

#377
#377
BeecherVol said:
His Will, is that everyone come to Christ, and he also states that many will not.

That means they have a choice.
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He is omniscient. The whole "knowing you before you were made" thing and all. He already knows who won't believe. By definition, that means there isn't so much a choice as a result.
 
#378
#378
IPorange said:
I was just told that the reason why the "Great Commission" was given was to spread the word. Why do that if they already have been given the word and supposedly rejected it?
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What exactly are you looking for here? If your mom told you sticking your hand in the fire would burn you, and you believed her, would you let your little sister stick her hand in? Or would you tell her what you know, because you don't want her to be harmed?
 
#379
#379
vollygirl said:
What exactly are you looking for here? If your mom told you sticking your hand in the fire would burn you, and you believed her, would you let your little sister stick her hand in? Or would you tell her what you know, because you don't want her to be harmed?
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Simply doesn't make sense. Why is my mom telling me not to touch the hot stove, but saying nothing to my little sister? Why let her get burned, even if she was told last week it was hot?
 
#381
#381
IPorange said:
Simply doesn't make sense. Why is my mom telling me not to touch the hot stove, but saying nothing to my little sister? Why let her get burned, even if she was told last week it was hot?
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:good!: You understand me, I'm sure. It's a game of semantics now. That's why I asked what you were looking for.

Have a good one IP!
 
#383
#383
IPorange said:
Simply doesn't make sense. Why is my mom telling me not to touch the hot stove, but saying nothing to my little sister? Why let her get burned, even if she was told last week it was hot?
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Where does it say that God is not warning everyone?
 
#384
#384
BeecherVol said:
Why does that take the choice out of it?
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Because it's fate, at that point. It's predetermined. How can one really be making a choice if the outcome is predetermined? That means that whatever would drive the selection of the two options were set variables, and thus no choice at all but rather cause and effect.
 
#385
#385
BeecherVol said:
Where does it say that God is not warning everyone?
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So you are saying the Native Americans, the Japanese, the Aborigines of Australia, the tribes of the Congo, etc. were all told about Christ and God? Because it is pretty clear they weren't. And if they were told a long time ago and then chose to reject the information, as I have been told before, then how would that be fair to their descendants that were never given that chance?
 
#386
#386
God knowing the future does not mean that he has made the choice for me, or for you. It just means he knows.
 
#388
#388
vollygirl said:
And you know it doesn't. I'd like to understand what you're trying to accomplish. But I just don't.
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Ok. Explain to me that matter of semantics, then. I just applied the model you set up to the actual matter we were discussing.
 
#389
#389
IPorange said:
He is omniscient. The whole "knowing you before you were made" thing and all. He already knows who won't believe. By definition, that means there isn't so much a choice as a result.
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I've been following this thread when I can, and don't have all the details but there is another interpretation that the word "knowing" also means "loving"... as in "Abraham knew Sarah" which is interpretated as Abraham loved Sarah. I think this makes more sense as God "loved you before you were made"... which is true for everyone.
 
#390
#390
IBlvNTmWrk said:
I've been following this thread when I can, and don't have all the details but there is another interpretation that the word "knowing" also means "loving"... as in "Abraham knew Sarah" which is interpretated as Abraham loved Sarah. I think this makes more sense as God "loved you before you were made"... which is true for everyone.
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So you're saying God isn't omniscient?
 
#391
#391
IPorange said:
So you are saying the Native Americans, the Japanese, the Aborigines of Australia, the tribes of the Congo, etc. were all told about Christ and God? Because it is pretty clear they weren't. And if they were told a long time ago and then chose to reject the information, as I have been told before, then how would that be fair to their descendants that were never given that chance?
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You cannot make that judgement, based on what they chose to believe, or not believe.
 
#392
#392
BeecherVol said:
You cannot make that judgement, based on what they chose to believe, or not believe.
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But I can make the judgement of whether there is a God or not... It's strange what I am given to make a choice and judgement on, and what I am not.
 
#393
#393
IPorange said:
So you're saying God isn't omniscient?
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I don't think I said that at all... but I'm not a calvanist type of Christian. I certainly believe God is omniscient, but I also believe there is a difference between foreknowledge and predestination.
 
#394
#394
IBlvNTmWrk said:
I don't think I said that at all... but I'm not a calvanist type of Christian. I certainly believe God is omniscient, but I also believe there is a difference between foreknowledge and predestination.
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If it were foreknowledge, then the event could still be changed. The problem with that is that would mean God could be wrong. That's why it ends up being predestination by default.
 
#395
#395
IPorange said:
If it were foreknowledge, then the event could still be changed. The problem with that is that would mean God could be wrong. That's why it ends up being predestination by default.
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So if you and I, died in a car wreck tomorrow. And you went to Hell, and I went to heaven. It would be because God knew it was gonna happen, so he had to have chosen our fates?

Remember, you said earlier, that you were raised in church, and decided it wasn't for you.
 
#396
#396
BeecherVol said:
So if you and I, died in a car wreck tomorrow. And you went to Hell, and I went to heaven. It would be because God knew it was gonna happen, so he had to have chosen our fates?

Remember, you said earlier, that you were raised in church, and decided it wasn't for you.
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He made me the way I am. He had complete control over how my life went up unto that point. The cards were lain out in such a way as to ensure I wouldn't "choose" to believe in him.

Let's look at it this way, as well: who is to say I wouldn't have found God a week after the crash? Why would God limit one person's chances, and not another? How is that fair?
 
#397
#397
BeecherVol said:
You cannot make that judgement, based on what they chose to believe, or not believe.
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Can you choose to believe a proposition which you had never heard? I mean, if I make up a sentence in my head, label it 'P', and then say that all people who do not assent to 'P' owe my 20 dollars, you would rightfully have a quarrel with me over my sense of fairness. The deal would only be remotely fair, if even then, if I disclosed the meaning of 'P', rendering it clear to anybody involved.

In that light, it is very curious to respond as you did to IP's post.
 
#398
#398
IPorange said:
If it were foreknowledge, then the event could still be changed. This is true. The problem with that is that would mean God could be wrong. That's why it ends up being predestination by default. This is false.
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You must really enjoy this game of trying to twist words and meanings... as you seem to play it quite often. God gives us all free will - period. Because God knows something is going to happen does not mean he predestined it to happen. Further, the Bible tells us that God is everlasting to everlasting, is, was, and will be, and is not subject to time. The words "In the beginning" have been interpreted to mean "when time began" or "before time began to begin"... in other words, time was also a creation of God.

As someone that was strongly supporting science in previous discussions, you should know that many astronomers and physicists believe there is no time on the cusps of black holes in deep outer space. You are also probably aware of string theory and the various dimensions some believe may exist. I certainly do not know, nor claim to know, all the answers... I was simply offering an interpretation.

You can choose to believe whatever you want. God provided free will and also offered everyone a free gift through salvation and belief in Christ. This is really all I need to know to make my decision.
 
#399
#399
IPorange said:
He made me the way I am. He had complete control over how my life went up unto that point. The cards were lain out in such a way as to ensure I wouldn't "choose" to believe in him.

Let's look at it this way, as well: who is to say I wouldn't have found God a week after the crash? Why would God limit one person's chances, and not another? How is that fair?
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So God does not want you to believe that he is God?


The Bible explains being prepared to go. It is explained pretty well.
 
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