Religious debate (split from main board)

#401
#401
What you are saying, is that God made you believe at a point in your life, and then he decided that you were not worthy anymore, so he casted you aside, because that was part of him being omniscient.

That makes no good sense.
 
#402
#402
IPorange said:
Do you want to get into biblical explanations?
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Im not trying to be a jerk. But you are always trying to make everything a 1+1=2 answer. And you said yourself that evolutionary theories, in cases could not be fully explained. So its not that simple.

If I fully understood God, why would he be God then?

He tells me in the Bible, that his ways are higher, than my ways, and that his thoughts, are higher than my thoughts. Its not like he is hiding the fact, that there is a difference between me and Him.
 
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#403
#403
No, what I am saying is that God doesn't exist, and Christianity does not make any logical sense, in terms of it's source material.
 
#405
#405
IPorange said:
No, what I am saying is that I choose to believe that God doesn't exist, and Christianity does not make any logical sense, in terms of it's source material.
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Sorry, but you have made this very clear and then left it out of this statement.
Like I said before, if this is your belief I pray for your heart to be opened to God. It is very obvious that it is not happening in this format, so I am out.
God Bless
 
#406
#406
T-TownVol said:
Sorry, but you have made this very clear and then left it out of this statement.
Like I said before, if this is your belief I pray for your heart to be opened to God. It is very obvious that it is not happening in this format, so I am out.
God Bless
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Don't put words in my mouth. According to your world view I have "chosen not to believe," as apparently everyone who doesn't believe has "chosen" not to. From my perspective, you choose to refuse the evidence of the physical world around you, as we know it.
 
#407
#407
IPorange said:
Don't put words in my mouth. According to your world view I have "chosen not to believe," as apparently everyone who doesn't believe has "chosen" not to. From my perspective, you choose to refuse the evidence of the physical world around you, as we know it.
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The choice is entirely yours.

You choose to refuse the evidence of the spiritual world around you as you so indicate.

Do an experiment, say a prayer and see what happens.
 
#410
#410
droski said:
god sounds like kind of a douchbag if he will keep me out of heaven soley because i am not 100% sure of his existance. that doesn't sound liek the god in the new testament.
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God died for you. If you can't accept that he did why do you deserve to spend eternity in Heaven?
 
#414
#414
tupac_vol said:
God died for you. If you can't accept that he did why do you deserve to spend eternity in Heaven?
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You can say things like that all day, it doesn't make them sensible. If I did something incredible for you, but then covered my tracks just enough to leave room for doubt, and then said nothing as dozens of people came forth to take credit, would I be justified in holding any ill-will towards you?

Only if God made it absolutely unquestionable that "he" died for your sins would it even be remotely fair to torture you for eternity for not accepting that fact. And, even at that point it remains monstrous.
 
#416
#416
Well if you aren't going to Heaven are you just rotting in the ground? Your question is the most popular and I can't explain it and won't act like I can. But there are too many facts that support a master creator and God.
 
#417
#417
tupac_vol said:
Well if you aren't going to Heaven are you just rotting in the ground? Your question is the most popular and I can't explain it and won't act like I can. But there are too many facts that support a master creator and God.
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Please share.
 
#418
#418
The location of Earth. Any closer to the Sun we fry. Any further we freeze. The Bible talks about a circular Earth that hangs on nothing. That was not an accepted concept. The Earth was supposed to be flat.

He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.
-Job 26:7

He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth.
-Isaiah 40:22

How do you explain life? Creation. Did we come from a unicellular organism? We came from God. Creation is one of the most compelling arguments in favor of a God.
 
#419
#419
tupac_vol said:
The location of Earth. Any closer to the Sun we fry. Any further we freeze. The Bible talks about a circular Earth that hangs on nothing. That was not an accepted concept. The Earth was supposed to be flat.

He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.
-Job 26:7

He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth.
-Isaiah 40:22

How do you explain life? Creation. Did we come from a unicellular organism? We came from God. Creation is one of the most compelling arguments in favor of a God.
Click to expand...

The optimum location has as much to do with atmospheric composition and longwave/shortwave values, as exact distance from the sun. The distance from the sun is actually in flux, and changes on long cycles-- cycles that run for longer than some Christians even believe the Earth exists on, sure. But then, you can't cherry-pick science and be intellectually honest. Mathematically, there are thousands of "earth-like planets" in the galaxy.

As far as hanging on nothing, twelve chapters later, there's this:

JOB 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
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If you are taking everything literally, which you apparently are, how can the Earth be hung on nothing and yet have foundations? It can't.


In regards to Biblical references to Earth's shape, a circle doesn't sound accurate to me. How is the earth like a circle? Circles ARE flat. We don't claim that the Italian nobility were "right" when they quoted this same scripture to Columbus when rejecting his bid to sail to the Indies.

MAT 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them
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How can the devil and Jesus see the whole world, and ALL the kingdoms of it when on top of a mountain on a sphere? Sounds like the author didn't know it was a sphere. He just saw the circle of the horizon, and assumed it was a flat circle.


As far as explaining life, refer to the last several pages. No need to repost it all. There is nothing compelling about saying "there just always was a God and he made us, the end. Don't question it." In fact, that's the opposite of compelling.
 
#420
#420
My best attempt at this will probably draw ire at best, but here goes. No one will ever be able to answer all of one's questions and I seriously doubt there are any accomplished apologists or theologians roaming these boards. I have, however, read some pretty good ones and they've strengthened my Faith with empirical data. Josh McDowell: New Evidence That Demands a Verdict. McDowell set out to disprove the Bible and literally went all over the world to multiple locations/libraries/seminaries/monestaries etc, etc to do so. He came away not only a believer but wrote an encyclopedic type book of his findings, which absolutely point to the Creator. David Nasser-multiple books, evangelist and apologist. He was a Muslim who set out to disprove the Bible and came away a believer and is now one of the most respected and accomplished apologists in the world. Lee Strobel-The Case for a Creator. Don't really know his story, but very empirical, agnostic type approach which is similar to the other two. I've had this type of discussion with believers and non-believers (some of whom were generally and sincerely curious and some of which were genuinely offensive and argumentative) and what I finally realized is that its like the parable (in Matthew) of the sower and the seed. Some of the seed sewn will be thrown "on the rocks" and will "not take root" or grow- meaning no matter what someone says, some folks will either just refute/refuse it and it simply will not take root in their spirit and "grow". Whether or not you accept that realization of mine is obviously contingent upon whether or not you believe the Bible to be the Word of God-which is obviously why this discussion is going on in the first place.
The "facts" that cannot be disputed by any non-believer are, however, the evidence that lies in CHANGED LIVES. My life looked completely different before I began to follow Christ and I've seen, firsthand (sometimes with miraculous revelation) His work in others lives as well. Call it what you will and explain it away if you must, but firsthand revelation by a believer in Christ cannot be disputed. 2 examples jump out for me: Both of my sons had difficult births and early infancies. BOTH were healed through prayer, I was there, I work in medicine, and it cannot be explained away. I saw the tests as they were being done and saw the miracles happen. I can elaborate, but it probably won't do much good and I've already rambled here long enough. Now why did God heal my kids and not some others who are more ill? I don't know and won't this side of Heaven, but I assure you I am going to ask when I get there b/c I've seen some of my Christian Brother's kids not be healed or die just as inexplicably. Am I entitled to healing b/c I am a believer?-no, in fact I am more humbled b/c I don't deserve anything b/c of my sin.
what I sincerely hope, and this should be the attitude of all believers here, is that you do find answers. I am sorry that I am no apologist and most of my responses to your follow-up questions will be answered with Biblical reference. But if you don't believe the Bible to be the Word of God, it's gonna be like telling you Dr. Seuss told me so. Its just another book to you, so that won't satisfy your curiosity or the void left by an answer drawn from a Scriptural reference. And, if this hasn't been already covered (i didn't wade through the entire thread), the reason we share our testimonies is because we're called to. In fact, its the last thing Jesus commanded to us. That commission shouldn't EVER be done in a condescending or berateful way, but in Love. Jesus also commanded us to Love our neighbor as ourselves, and I sincerely hope that's the attitude of the hearts of the believers here. Sometimes, as imperfect as we are, that love manifests itself in frustration because we sincerely and wholeheartedly believe we have the cure for death, and we want to take as many folks to Heaven with us as we can. Its sort of like watching your brother drink his life away as an alcoholic. You love your brother and want to help and you try your best, but just get frustrated as heck with him and say things you shouldn't say. Couple that with the fact the message you're bringing isn't exactly widely accepted, and never has been since the creation of time--> now the messenger has to live up to this expectation of how a "Believer or Christian" is supposed to act, talk, walk. Instantly anything you say negatively is Hypocritical. I will stay in this as long as I can with the previous disclaimers and a promise of whomever engages me will be fervently prayed for.
 
#421
#421
OrangeU said:
My best attempt at this will probably draw ire at best, but here goes. No one will ever be able to answer all of one's questions and I seriously doubt there are any accomplished apologists or theologians roaming these boards. I have, however, read some pretty good ones and they've strengthened my Faith with empirical data. Josh McDowell: New Evidence That Demands a Verdict. McDowell set out to disprove the Bible and literally went all over the world to multiple locations/libraries/seminaries/monestaries etc, etc to do so. He came away not only a believer but wrote an encyclopedic type book of his findings, which absolutely point to the Creator. David Nasser-multiple books, evangelist and apologist. He was a Muslim who set out to disprove the Bible and came away a believer and is now one of the most respected and accomplished apologists in the world. Lee Strobel-The Case for a Creator. Don't really know his story, but very empirical, agnostic type approach which is similar to the other two. I've had this type of discussion with believers and non-believers (some of whom were generally and sincerely curious and some of which were genuinely offensive and argumentative) and what I finally realized is that its like the parable (in Matthew) of the sower and the seed. Some of the seed sewn will be thrown "on the rocks" and will "not take root" or grow- meaning no matter what someone says, some folks will either just refute/refuse it and it simply will not take root in their spirit and "grow". Whether or not you accept that realization of mine is obviously contingent upon whether or not you believe the Bible to be the Word of God-which is obviously why this discussion is going on in the first place.
The "facts" that cannot be disputed by any non-believer are, however, the evidence that lies in CHANGED LIVES. My life looked completely different before I began to follow Christ and I've seen, firsthand (sometimes with miraculous revelation) His work in others lives as well. Call it what you will and explain it away if you must, but firsthand revelation by a believer in Christ cannot be disputed. 2 examples jump out for me: Both of my sons had difficult births and early infancies. BOTH were healed through prayer, I was there, I work in medicine, and it cannot be explained away. I saw the tests as they were being done and saw the miracles happen. I can elaborate, but it probably won't do much good and I've already rambled here long enough. Now why did God heal my kids and not some others who are more ill? I don't know and won't this side of Heaven, but I assure you I am going to ask when I get there b/c I've seen some of my Christian Brother's kids not be healed or die just as inexplicably. Am I entitled to healing b/c I am a believer?-no, in fact I am more humbled b/c I don't deserve anything b/c of my sin.
what I sincerely hope, and this should be the attitude of all believers here, is that you do find answers. I am sorry that I am no apologist and most of my responses to your follow-up questions will be answered with Biblical reference. But if you don't believe the Bible to be the Word of God, it's gonna be like telling you Dr. Seuss told me so. Its just another book to you, so that won't satisfy your curiosity or the void left by an answer drawn from a Scriptural reference. And, if this hasn't been already covered (i didn't wade through the entire thread), the reason we share our testimonies is because we're called to. In fact, its the last thing Jesus commanded to us. That commission shouldn't EVER be done in a condescending or berateful way, but in Love. Jesus also commanded us to Love our neighbor as ourselves, and I sincerely hope that's the attitude of the hearts of the believers here. Sometimes, as imperfect as we are, that love manifests itself in frustration because we sincerely and wholeheartedly believe we have the cure for death, and we want to take as many folks to Heaven with us as we can. Its sort of like watching your brother drink his life away as an alcoholic. You love your brother and want to help and you try your best, but just get frustrated as heck with him and say things you shouldn't say. Couple that with the fact the message you're bringing isn't exactly widely accepted, and never has been since the creation of time--> now the messenger has to live up to this expectation of how a "Believer or Christian" is supposed to act, talk, walk. Instantly anything you say negatively is Hypocritical. I will stay in this as long as I can with the previous disclaimers and a promise of whomever engages me will be fervently prayed for.
Click to expand...

Excellent post. :good!:
 
#422
#422
Love your words Rev. Now can we kick the Gators around some since we are here and all...Just sayin.
 
#423
#423
IPorange said:
What kind of loving God sets up a system where he knows many will fail, and burn in hell?
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The same one that created a rule where God's son (who is also God, don't ask) had be brutally murdered by people to save everyone from a hell which God created. Hopefully this all makes sense, otherwise you will burn in hell with people like Aristotle and Euclid.
 
#424
#424
If you are searching for a rational argument to support the existence of God, they are out there. If you are looking for mathematical evidence that it is more likely that God exists that not, it is out there. If you are looking for factual evidence that God exists, good luck.

The feeling of God in your heart is beyond my ability to articulate. It will change your life.
 
#425
#425
what IP is referring to is also known as Calvinism: which goes something like "well, since God is all knowing and all powerful, He knows who will choose Him and who won't". This is flawed b/c if you read the Bible you read that "God is love" and "Love is patient, and Love is Kind" so.....God is patient and Kind. That can be deduced. Well He set up Adam and Eve in paradise, yet they still chose sin and condemned man to that sin. To truly be loved, God knew that He'd have to give man free will, with the risk of man rejecting Him-which obviously many do. God didn't create us as robots to love and worship Him out of compulsion. I believe that the patient, kind, loving God waits for us to choose Him (patiently-lol) and pulls on our heartstrings many times throughout our lives. We, as humans, either choose Him or choose hell-quite the opposite of calvinism. Hell, literally, is the absence of light and love, in the many ways the original authors of the Bible used different words to describe our one word for Hell.
 
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