Religious debate (split from main board)

[Snakes on a Wii]

So basically you have to decide for yourself, is there a purpose for life, and everything around us. Or evolution.

My personal beliefs about the purpose and meaning of life are completely unrelated to evolution. Evolution tells us why life is so diverse, and why we have certain biological traits. "Purpose" is a human-created concept that comes from the sense of "before" and "after", and "cause" and "effect". The evolutionary purpose of a hand or an eye is that they give their owner better chance to survive and reproduce, but at no point in the process is consciousness required, to give it that purpose. The "purpose" is something we humans think of after the fact. As far as my own personal beliefs about meaning, I am an existentialist, which means basically that people create their own meaning and purpose in their lives out of a fear of being meaningless and worthless.

 

[tvolsfan]

I disagree. Things that are untrue almost always have holes in them. In fact, that is how you know someone is lying, is it not? It is possible that there is just some missing collection, or there was "nothing worth writing about" (although there sure is a lot of pointless genealogy in the Bible, as is), but that doesn't seem very likely considering the scope of things that must have changed in the world in that time, without explanation.

And if you don't think every bit of the Bible is literal, you are saying the word of God is not accurate. It starts a whole slippery slope of problems with the Bible, in regards to things that were miracles or divine.

That's your opinion. I don't really see it that way. And did God actually write the book himself? Or maybe someone who felt that was the best way to present the information he had? Religion will always be flawed because people aren't perfect. It doesn't actually mean the idea of the religion is just wrong.

 

[IPorange]

I don't see why there can't be a deity, other than it wouldn't follow what people consider to be natural rules. I also don't see why I would assume that something that spread throughout the world from a small region is nothing more than a scam created by people looking for something to explain their origin.

I wouldn't call it's origins a scam. That would need some sort of conscious effort behind it. And in fact, Judaism isn't in the business of converting in the same way as Christianity or Islam. Religion clearly is something that is appealing to the general human, because it answers questions and gives purpose. I don't think there is anything consciously deceiving about it, but rather just a vestige of a time when humans knew far less about the world around them, and needed some sort of explanation.

 

[IPorange]

That's your opinion. I don't really see it that way. And did God actually write the book himself. Or maybe someone who felt that was the best way to present the information

Any preacher or priest would tell you you are treading on dangerous ground, if you begin studying the Bible with those sort of thoughts on the matter. The whole thing will fall apart sooner or later if you look at it like that.

 

[Snakes on a Wii]

I don't see why there can't be a deity, other than it wouldn't follow what people consider to be natural rules. I also don't see why I would assume that something that spread throughout the world from a small region is nothing more than a scam created by people looking for something to explain their origin.

There is no reason why there can't be a god. But an atheist views god as a literary figure, a fable, not a real and existing being. You're right that the idea of god is universal, but so are many other so-called "literary archetypes". Both the Chinese and the Europeans came up with the idea of dragons, though at different times and taking on different shapes. Does this mean that dragons existed sometime around the 12th century AD? No, it just means that the human brain is either hardwired for certain ideas and beliefs (such as God) or that some ideas are so obvious that they occur to multiple different people independently.

Curiously, archetypes spread along cultural patterns. For example, many of Shakespeare's archetypes are common throughout English literature today. Also, monotheistic god spreads along these patterns. You would think that if particular religion was true, it would be obvious to everyone. Just like how mathematics is universally accepted across cultures.

 

[tvolsfan]

I wouldn't call it's origins a scam. That would need some sort of conscious effort behind it. And in fact, Judaism isn't in the business of converting in the same way as Christianity or Islam. Religion clearly is something that is appealing to the general human, because it answers questions and gives purpose. I don't think there is anything consciously deceiving about it, but rather just a vestige of a time when humans knew far less about the world around them, and needed some sort of explanation.

Again, I can't prove Christianity to you, but I'm still not a big believer that random, baseless ideas survive this long.

 

[IPorange]

Again, I can't prove Christianity to you, but I'm still not a big believer that random, baseless ideas survive this long.

Buddhism is older than Christianity. There are several religions and concepts that are most unChristian that are far older and even more widespread than Christianity. I mean, how many superstitions have been kicking around the globe for thousands of years?

 

[tvolsfan]

Any preacher or priest would tell you you are treading on dangerous ground, if you begin studying the Bible with those sort of thoughts on the matter. The whole thing will fall apart sooner or later if you look at it like that.

It's my interpretation, not my pastor's. I've studied the bible before. I've thought about trying to rationalize things that seems harder to explain, and my beliefs on the subject aren't changing. I'm perfectly capable with accepting that my Priests and even the Pope don't have everything exactly right.

 

[IPorange]

Fair enough.

 

[tvolsfan]

Buddhism is older than Christianity. There are several religions and concepts that are most unChristian that are far older and even more widespread than Christianity. I mean, how many superstitions have been kicking around the globe for thousands of years?

None that have the widespread support of Christianity, Islam, or Judaism. Again, you could argue that everything is a coincidence.

 

[IPorange]

None that have the widespread support of Christianity, Islam, or Judaism.

That's geography. All three of those religions originated in the middle east, where the continents of Asia, Europe, and Africa all come together. Of course they are more widespread.

 

[tvolsfan]

That's geography. All three of those religions originated in the middle east, where the continents of Asia, Europe, and Africa all come together. Of course they are more widespread.

Buddhism and Hinduism are both old religions with many followers, but neither really spread. The 3 religions in question spread all over. Maybe they just have more active missionaries, and it could be just chance. I can't refute that, but there are still a lot of coincidences.

This seems like an argument in which neither of us are going to change our minds, but still nice to see different viewpoints. Perhaps I'll be back.

 

[BeecherVol]

My personal beliefs about the purpose and meaning of life are completely unrelated to evolution. Evolution tells us why life is so diverse, and why we have certain biological traits. "Purpose" is a human-created concept that comes from the sense of "before" and "after", and "cause" and "effect". The evolutionary purpose of a hand or an eye is that they give their owner better chance to survive and reproduce, but at no point in the process is consciousness required, to give it that purpose. The "purpose" is something we humans think of after the fact. As far as my own personal beliefs about meaning, I am an existentialist, which means basically that people create their own meaning and purpose in their lives out of a fear of being meaningless and worthless.

Thats where the discussion hits a snag. Because to me they are related.

 

[BeecherVol]

That's geography. All three of those religions originated in the middle east, where the continents of Asia, Europe, and Africa all come together. Of course they are more widespread.

I believe that scattering was due to the Tower of Babel, in Gen 11. The story could also explain the language change for the regions.

 

[IPorange]

I believe that scattering was due to the Tower of Babel, in Gen 11. The story could also explain the language change for the regions.

Of all the stories in the Bible that call in to question the existence of god, it's that one.

How can humans build a tower to heaven, at that time? Why was God threatened by this, and why would he say, "if they can do this, they can do anything?"

Nothing about that story paints God as all-powerful, all-knowing, or even "good" from a human perspective.

 

[BeecherVol]

Of all the stories in the Bible that call in to question the existence of god, it's that one.

How can humans build a tower to heaven, at that time? Why was God threatened by this, and why would he say, "if they can do this, they can do anything?"

Nothing about that story paints God as all-powerful, all-knowing, or even "good" from a human perspective.

The NIV translates it as the were buiding the tower, to reach the heavens, don't think that means the same heaven that Jesus spoke of.

They were told to scatter, and populate the earth. They were directly disobeying what God told them to do. And their motive for building the tower was for their own glory. And he scattered them himself.

What does that have to do with him being good?

 

[T-TownVol]

See, I made a bunch of examples about this in my post on evolution. If you read it these questions would be answered.

But since you probably won't here's one to think about:

The human head is too big. The brain has to fold itself to fit inside the skull because if the skull was any bigger it would be impossible to give birth. It's tough enough already. This is evidence against an intelligent designer, since such a designer would have made the brain more efficient and the skull smaller, or the birth canal wider.

OH goodness....thanks for that good laugh.

 

[T-TownVol]

Of all the stories in the Bible that call in to question the existence of god, it's that one.

How can humans build a tower to heaven, at that time? Why was God threatened by this, and why would he say, "if they can do this, they can do anything?"

Nothing about that story paints God as all-powerful, all-knowing, or even "good" from a human perspective.

IP, I truly feel for you man. You seem to need "answers" to anything that you come in contact with. I hope and pray that one day you find them. But, to find them, you must be willing to have a little faith in the things around you. "Taste and see that he is Lord"

 

[T-TownVol]

People say religion was invented to explain stuff that people can't understand. It's really the same argument for non-relgious people. Many simply don't believe in God because they aren't able to understand it, and they don't like that either.

I have made this point over and over. Religion is of man. We will NEVER fully understand God.

 

[BeecherVol]

I have made this point over and over. Religion is of man. We will NEVER fully understand God.

I don't fully understand my wife.

 

[T-TownVol]

I don't fully understand my wife.

Heck, I do not understand why I do some of the stuff I do. But, I will say this, tonight is the first time in MY LIFE that I have been told that my brain was TOO BIG.

 

[T-TownVol]

Any preacher or priest would tell you you are treading on dangerous ground, if you begin studying the Bible with those sort of thoughts on the matter. The whole thing will fall apart sooner or later if you look at it like that.

IP, we may have found your issue with believing.

 

[turambar85]

My personal beliefs about the purpose and meaning of life are completely unrelated to evolution. Evolution tells us why life is so diverse, and why we have certain biological traits. "Purpose" is a human-created concept that comes from the sense of "before" and "after", and "cause" and "effect". The evolutionary purpose of a hand or an eye is that they give their owner better chance to survive and reproduce, but at no point in the process is consciousness required, to give it that purpose. The "purpose" is something we humans think of after the fact. As far as my own personal beliefs about meaning, I am an existentialist, which means basically that people create their own meaning and purpose in their lives out of a fear of being meaningless and worthless.

Hooray for notes from the underground!

Camus, Sartre, Nietzsche, or Kierkegaard?

 

[turambar85]

Buddhism and Hinduism are both old religions with many followers, but neither really spread. The 3 religions in question spread all over. Maybe they just have more active missionaries, and it could be just chance. I can't refute that, but there are still a lot of coincidences.

This seems like an argument in which neither of us are going to change our minds, but still nice to see different viewpoints. Perhaps I'll be back.

See, you move from an argument of standing the test of time, to an argument of global acceptance. I'm not sure thats a great idea, or means anything about divinity. I mean, nearly all peasants and lay people believed in a flat earth. Platonism was rampant across the west. Neither of these positions, however, gain legitimacy by this fact.

 

[gsvol]

Buddhism is older than Christianity. There are several religions and concepts that are most unChristian that are far older and even more widespread than Christianity. I mean, how many superstitions have been kicking around the globe for thousands of years?

WRONGO BUCKO, the Buddha does not predate Christ.

Furthermore nothing that the Buddha taught is adverse in any way to the teachings of Jesus.

One thing that did come along before the appearnce of Christ, Zoroatrianism, maybe rhw oldest 'religion' and from whom the Hebrews took some of their traditions during their captivity in Babylon.

The Zoraoastrians believed man was immortal until about 12,000 years ago when death and hell appeared upon Earth. Jesus is famous for conquering death and hell by his example of sacrifice and resurection from the dead.

An intersting story is that of one Zoroastrian king who predicted the birth of Christ and was most likely the reason for the Magi's appearance at the birth of Christ.

He had been a mere sherpard boy in the hills of Persia and had experienced a vistit of angelic hosts, much as the shepards who attented Christ's birth in Bethlehem, in a short span of twenty years he advanced from lowly shepard boy to the ruler of Babylon, ruler over many nations. At about the time he had the angelic visit, a prophet of Israel foretold the conquering and exile of the Hebrews becaused they had not followed God's instructions.

Abraham the patriarch of 'God's chosen people, paid tythes to Melchizedek, the king of Salem (Jerusalem, city of peace) and the Bible said Melchizedek and all his people 'had no beginning and no end', meaning they were immortals.

The Vedas of India and Hinduism predate Christ in the chronological orderof Earth time.

So does Greek mythology and who had a temple built to the 'unknown god."

The teachings of Lao Tsu predate christ but is more philosophical that religious although Lao said he learned his wisdom from immortals.

Recently a book has been written "Christ the Eternal Tao" with the meaning that 'tao' means 'way' and if fact when Jesus said I am the way, the truth and the light that He meant He was the physical embodiment of the Tao.

There is only one religion that is unchristian other than satanism that is islam, they are one and the same.