Religious debate (split from main board)

#601
#601
BeecherVol said:
So basically, what you are saying is, there is currently nothing wrong with the size of our head in comparison with child birth? Or is our head too big?
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No, what I am saying is is that there is no evolutionary impetus to benefit those who are born with slightly larger heads.
 
#602
#602
turambar85 said:
Look, sir, you just said that every person who doesn't believe as you do is being deluded by Satan. All I did was say that you seem pretty sure in yourself to think that you're too clever to be fooled by the old man.
And, speaking of experience, people from every religion in history have had "experiences", that means next to nothing. Do their mystical experiences mean that their religion is correct? If you say so...
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Clever has nothing to do with it, from the aspect of out smarting.
 
#604
#604
turambar85 said:
Look, sir, you just said that every person who doesn't believe as you do is being deluded by Satan. All I did was say that you seem pretty sure in yourself to think that you're too clever to be fooled by the old man.

And, speaking of experience, people from every religion in history have had "experiences", that means next to nothing. Do their mystical experiences mean that their religion is correct? If you say so...
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Pardon? Find the exact quote where I said every person who doesn't believe is being deluted by satan! I merely stated what I believed, I never once said that you or anyone else had to believe. Its seems that you maybe unsure as what you truly believe. I stated what I believe. I, or no one else can force you or make you believe anything. You have to come to your own beliefs.

You seem to really jump to conclusions real quick. Mystical? Maybe these folks with others beliefs had some kind of mystical experience. Like I said, the experience must be experienced to ever understand it, there was nothing mystical about it.
 
#606
#606
Oldvol75 said:
Pardon? Find the exact quote where I said every person who doesn't believe is being deluted by satan! I merely stated what I believed, I never once said that you or anyone else had to believe. Its seems that you maybe unsure as what you truly believe. I stated what I believe. I, or no one else can force you or make you believe anything. You have to come to your own beliefs.

You seem to really jump to conclusions real quick. Mystical? Maybe these folks with others beliefs had some kind of mystical experience. Like I said, the experience must be experienced to ever understand it, there was nothing mystical about it.
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Well, I think a good place to start would be where you said you can explain all other religions by evoking the devil. I think that counts as saying that other religious believers were deluded by the devil.

As for your comments about certainty and stating belief - they make no sense whatsoever. I never alleged that your comments meant anything about other peoples beliefs. Your comments were factual claims, not normative, you should believe this claims.

And I don't get where you see my lack of certainty. Oh well.
 
#607
#607
turambar85 said:
That is just the Christian condescension and hypocrisy that I can't stomach. You can speak of all other religions as devil-caused facades or imaginative fancies, but once yours is similarly discussed, you are being persecuted and abused.
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You obiviously must be of another faith. Mind sharing what it is?
 
#611
#611
BeecherVol said:
But you remain open minded?
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I'm not sure what you mean. Are you technically open-minded right now about the theory of gravity? the existence of other planets? heliocentrism? how about atheism?

If by open-minded you mean "will listen to a good argument if it presents itself", then yes, I am.

If by open-minded you mean "agnostic, or thinks that it is possible or even plausible that I'm wrong" then absolutely not.
 
#612
#612
turambar85 said:
Well, I think a good place to start would be where you said you can explain all other religions by evoking the devil. I think that counts as saying that other religious believers were deluded by the devil.
As for your comments about certainty and stating belief - they make no sense whatsoever. I never alleged that your comments meant anything about other peoples beliefs. Your comments were factual claims, not normative, you should believe this claims.

And I don't get where you see my lack of certainty. Oh well.
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You never did show me the quote. I merely, as I said before, stated my beliefs. If someone doesn't know what they believe and why, don't you think that persons faith is in vain?

"I never alleged that your comments meant anything about other peoples beliefs." As to this quote from you, I believe you answered that in the bold print.
 
#613
#613
Oldvol75 said:
You never did show me the quote. I merely, as I said before, stated my beliefs. If someone doesn't know what they believe and why, don't you think that persons faith is in vain?

"I never alleged that your comments meant anything about other peoples beliefs." As to this quote from you, I believe you answered that in the bold print.
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What that means, in bold, is that you are making claims about the origins or causes of their beliefs. I didn't think that you meant anything about their beliefs as they are held.
 
#614
#614
turambar85 said:
Im not of any faith. I don't see how my pointing out hypocrisy equates to my being superstitious.
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But then why call something "superstitious" just because you don't happen to believe in it? Why is it hypocrisy to believe something and state ones beliefs? Are you not being the same thing that you are accusing others of believeing? You stated your non-beliefs and we merely questioned you as you were questioning us. You pointed out all the places where you thought we were wrong, just as we pointed out what we thought was wrong.

So I guess that hypocrisy is just a one way street.
 
#617
#617
Oldvol75 said:
But then why call something "superstitious" just because you don't happen to believe in it? Why is it hypocrisy to believe something and state ones beliefs? Are you not being the same thing that you are accusing others of believeing? You stated your non-beliefs and we merely questioned you as you were questioning us. You pointed out all the places where you thought we were wrong, just as we pointed out what we thought was wrong.

So I guess that hypocrisy is just a one way street.
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It seems like you've misunderstood everything I've said. Maybe you have poor reading comprehension. Maybe I am horrible at expressing my thoughts. Maybe message boards aren't the best places for these discussions. I'm not sure which.

Anyway, the hypocrisy was in the desire of religious people to mock and denigrate other religious groups, but yet demand to be treated with kid gloves themselves because "religion is a personal experience and not subject to criticism". This is relevant in this thread because you (in post 593 - there) alluded to other religions as being made by the devil, yet you seem to get jumpy when I suggest something similar about yours.

There, perhaps now we understand one another.
 
#618
#618
turambar85 said:
I'm not sure what you mean. Are you technically open-minded right now about the theory of gravity? the existence of other planets? heliocentrism? how about atheism?

If by open-minded you mean "will listen to a good argument if it presents itself", then yes, I am.

If by open-minded you mean "agnostic, or thinks that it is possible or even plausible that I'm wrong" then absolutely not.
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No, you are not. You seem to be a knowledgeable, and perhaps, intelligent person... but you are not willing to listen. Listening requires hearing with thoughtful attention and actually giving consideration. From an observers perspective, I don't see where you have demonstrated this ability at all. I do agree, however, that you are looking for a good argument... as your interest seems to lie in finding anyone that is willing to participate only as your verbal punching bag.

My best council would be to learn how to actually have a discussion, which entails truly listening and understanding others perspectives and sharing differing opinions without disparaging comments, and perhaps then others would be more interested in participating.

And yes, I am a Christian... but no, I don't consider my response above to be condescending in any way. If I observed Christians being as antagonistic as you I would gladly offer the same advice to them.
 
#619
#619
turambar85 said:
It seems like you've misunderstood everything I've said. Maybe you have poor reading comprehension. Maybe I am horrible at expressing my thoughts. Maybe message boards aren't the best places for these discussions. I'm not sure which.

Anyway, the hypocrisy was in the desire of religious people to mock and denigrate other religious groups, but yet demand to be treated with kid gloves themselves because "religion is a personal experience and not subject to criticism". This is relevant in this thread because you (in post 593 - there) alluded to other religions as being made by the devil, yet you seem to get jumpy when I suggest something similar about yours.

There, perhaps now we understand one another.
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Not jumpy in the least, I'm very sound in what I believe. That has been one of the points that I've been trying to make. It wouldn't be much of a faith and/or religion if I changed it each and every time someone objected to some part of it.

I would be willing to be taught differently if you can show me where the Bible teaches something different than what I have said about the workings of Satan. Because best of my recollection in the beginning book, satan decieves.

Where have I asked you to treat me with kid gloves? The only thing that Christians really get upset about is how its put down. Its ok to take God's name in vain on movies and tv. TV shows regularly take shots at Christians and christian beliefs daily. In those cases I have what is called a remote control and don't have to see the movie. But my question is why don't they take shots at lets say, Islam. That may be because they know that these people will declare jihad on them. Look around the world and see just how many Christians are killed daily just because they believe in a man called Jesus Christ.

When have I mocked a religion in this thread? I merely stated what mine teaches. From what I have read, you stating that Christianity was superstitious,hypocritical has been the only mocking that has gone on.

When you are critized do you just say ok? Or do you defend your point of view? I have only defended my beliefs, nothing more nothing less.
 
#620
#620
IBlvNTmWrk said:
No, you are not. You seem to be a knowledgeable, and perhaps, intelligent person... but you are not willing to listen. Listening requires hearing with thoughtful attention and actually giving consideration. From an observers perspective, I don't see where you have demonstrated this ability at all. I do agree, however, that you are looking for a good argument... as your interest seems to lie in finding anyone that is willing to participate only as your verbal punching bag.

My best council would be to learn how to actually have a discussion, which entails truly listening and understanding others perspectives and sharing differing opinions without disparaging comments, and perhaps then others would be more interested in participating.

And yes, I am a Christian... but no, I don't consider my response above to be condescending in any way. If I observed Christians being as antagonistic as you I would gladly offer the same advice to them.
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Knowledgeable, no. Intelligent, not really. Capable of learning from discussion, doubtlessly! Every bit of growth I have ever had has been through discussion, so don't say that I can't listen. My only motivation for coming to boards is the off-chance of hearing something good in dialogue.

I've considered everything that has been said, but there are two things to be said in that light. First, there hasn't been much said that could provoke thought. Second, to reject something heard is not to say you didn't hear it.
 
#621
#621
turambar85 said:
Knowledgeable, no. Intelligent, not really. Capable of learning from discussion, doubtlessly! Every bit of growth I have ever had has been through discussion, so don't say that I can't listen. My only motivation for coming to boards is the off-chance of hearing something good in dialogue.

I've considered everything that has been said, but there are two things to be said in that light. First, there hasn't been much said that could provoke thought. Second, to reject something heard is not to say you didn't hear it.
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And with one reply you've proven my point... I have read many posts (even some of yours) that provoke thought. And second, I didn't say you didn't HEAR... I said you didn't LISTEN.
 
#622
#622
IBlvNTmWrk said:
And with one reply you've proven my point... I have read many posts (even some of yours) that provoke thought. And second, I didn't say you didn't HEAR... I said you didn't LISTEN.
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Ok, I'm sorry but I don't make a distinction between hearing and listening in myself. If I hear it, I listen to it.

But, anyway, how does this prove what point?
 
#623
#623
turambar85 said:
It seems like you've misunderstood everything I've said. Maybe you have poor reading comprehension. Maybe I am horrible at expressing my thoughts. Maybe message boards aren't the best places for these discussions. I'm not sure which.

Anyway, the hypocrisy was in the desire of religious people to mock and denigrate other religious groups, but yet demand to be treated with kid gloves themselves because "religion is a personal experience and not subject to criticism". This is relevant in this thread because you (in post 593 - there) alluded to other religions as being made by the devil, yet you seem to get jumpy when I suggest something similar about yours.

There, perhaps now we understand one another.
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You refer to islam??
 
#624
#624
Haven't been reading the past few pages but I have something to share about a discussion I had a few pages back.

It has to do with evolution being an accident.

The proteins in our body are made of chemical compounds called amino acids. There are dozens of amino acids, but countless ways in which they can be arranged to form proteins. And for any given sequence of amino acids, there are even greater numbers of DNA sequences that can code for it.

Take hemoglobin, a protein important in oxygen transfer. The sequence of amino acids that makes up hemoglobin can be coded for by some number in the range of 10^40 DNA sequences. That's a 1 with 40 zeros behind it. Now, out of all those different DNA combinations, which one would God pick? It turns out it doesn't matter for the point I'm trying to make, but just imagine that God has a favorite (or, he just picks random ones, or different ones for each species). Evolution would dictate that since all species share a common ancestor, they should be roughly the same. Note the word "roughly". Remember how there's 10^40 possible combinations for the same sequence? Well it turns out that means random mutations can happen to one combination and it will still work.

So what do we see when we look at the codes for different species? Let's look at humans and chimps. There is about a 3% difference between the human and chimpanzee DNA code for hemoglobin. There is also a 3% (roughly) difference between the human and chimpanzee DNA code for every other protein humans and chimps share. Why aren't they identical? Because humans and chimps had a common ancestor, millions of years ago, that they took the combination from, and during those millions of years mutation has altered those combinations so that there's a 3% difference in each one.

Now let's look at horses. Horses have an even wider difference between both humans and chimps. In fact, if we get wider and wider apart, animal species have less in common with these protein sequences. Know what that means? Every animal alive today uses the same proteins, but they all have different DNA coding for each one, and the less related they are the more different the code is!

Now why would God make every animal on Earth's DNA this different? The only explanation is that God made it look like evolution had happened. Perhaps He is trying to test our faith?

By the way, the chances of this distribution happening by chance is beyond reckoning. Now that's what I call an accident.
 
#625
#625
BeecherVol said:
But you remain open minded?
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An atheist is open-minded, but it does not seem so to the believer. The reason why is that to an atheist the idea of a God is as laughable as Unicorns, etc. Believers are much more ready to accept the idea that a God could exist, even if it seems unlikely or fanciful.

I believe the saying goes like "Don't be so open-minded that your brain falls out".
 
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