Religious debate (split from main board)

#2,327
#2,327
g8terh8ter_eric said:
Your describing a searching individual though, I'm referring to those who are just trying to gain knowledge, which isn't what the Bible was written for. It's much more than that. I believe it's God's Word, and you don't believe that's what it is, then why take the time to understand it, if it means nothing to you afterward?? The Bible is spiritual, and if you aren't reading it for spiritual purposes, it doesn't no good.
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Why read Keats or Yates? Even if it doesn't do them good in the sense that you want it to, they might find it interesting. For example, I know plenty of people who enjoy reading the Native American trickster tales and stories of creation. They don't believe them, but they find them interesting. In many cases, there is history encoded. In other cases, they find it interesting because it gives insight to thought processes, etc.
 
#2,329
#2,329
TennTradition said:
Why read Keats or Yates? Even if it doesn't do them good in the sense that you want it to, they might find it interesting. For example, I know plenty of people who enjoy reading the Native American trickster tales and stories of creation. They don't believe them, but they find them interesting. In many cases, there is history encoded. In other cases, they find it interesting because it gives insight to thought processes, etc.
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I would recommend "American Indian Myths and Legends" by Erdoes and Ortiz to anyone. You can find many copies in most used book stores.
 
#2,330
#2,330
g8terh8ter_eric said:
Ok, here's a question for you....

If you are seeking an answer to a question, you pick up a book that can give you an answer to your question right?? BUT, if you aren't searching for an answer, would you pick up that same book and read it the same way as you did if you were searching?? People are getting the searching individual mixed up with the person who will read it and still tell Christian's they are full of it and their beliefs are in vain. That's my whole point.
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Actually, I can think of plenty of instances where my colleagues or I have read something in the literature, didn't make much of it, and then have come back to it when we discover something else and it becomes useful.
 
#2,331
#2,331
IPorange said:
I was responding to this:
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Oh! OK, I forgot about you and your casual reading!:)

As discussed alot in this part of the thread, by casual reading, you never get to the "spiritual discernment" part. Thats what alot of this has been about tonight.
 
#2,332
#2,332
TennTradition said:
Actually, I can think of plenty of instances where my colleagues or I have read something in the literature, didn't make much of it, and then have come back to it when we discover something else and it becomes useful.
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Lets just say that someone who picks up the Bible just to read it and they read the 10 commandments. In the future would they apply all or some of the commandments when they come back to it? If just some, would they not just be using it for morals, or would they use all the commandments?

I said this because of their original purpose of reading. Are they reading just for the sake of reading it or are they reading it to begin a walk with Christ?
 
#2,333
#2,333
Oldvol75 said:
Lets just say that someone who picks up the Bible just to read it and they read the 10 commandments. In the future would they apply all or some of the commandments when they come back to it? If just some, would they not just be using it for morals, or would they use all the commandments?

I said this because of their original purpose of reading. Are they reading just for the sake of reading it or are they reading it to begin a walk with Christ?
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Exactly. If you've already convinced yourself your reading a fairy tale before you pick up the book, it's pointless to read. If your searching for answers in your life however, then it's a good start, but you need to go speak with a pastor first, IMO. If you don't have a spiritual guide to start with, your not going to understand things and become frustrated and confused.
 
#2,334
#2,334
Oldvol75 said:
Lets just say that someone who picks up the Bible just to read it and they read the 10 commandments. In the future would they apply all or some of the commandments when they come back to it? If just some, would they not just be using it for morals, or would they use all the commandments?

I said this because of their original purpose of reading. Are they reading just for the sake of reading it or are they reading it to begin a walk with Christ?
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In either case, I'm not going to argue they shouldn't read it if they want to.
 
#2,335
#2,335
g8terh8ter_eric said:
Exactly. If you've already convinced yourself your reading a fairy tale before you pick up the book, it's pointless to read. If your searching for answers in your life however, then it's a good start, but you need to go speak with a pastor first, IMO. If you don't have a spiritual guide to start with, your not going to understand things and become frustrated and confused.
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Are we talking about climate change or the bible? I think that this might explain my frustration with feeling like the words I type are only read half the time. It's because they're already written off as a fairy-tale.
 
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#2,336
#2,336
g8terh8ter_eric said:
Exactly. If you've already convinced yourself your reading a fairy tale before you pick up the book, it's pointless to read. If your searching for answers in your life however, then it's a good start, but you need to go speak with a pastor first, IMO. If you don't have a spiritual guide to start with, your not going to understand things and become frustrated and confused.
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It's not pointless to read. Are fairy tales pointless to read? Then why do we read them to our children?
 
#2,338
#2,338
Oldvol75 said:
I'm not saying that they shouldn't read it at all. Just pointing out what their original intent may have been. I believe that's what eric's been saying all night here.
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I wasn't quoting your posts and disagreeing with them (not saying you aren't in this conversation, but just saying that it wasn't you who said they shouldn't read it).

Eric's been saying it will do them no good to read it, but that intends on what you view as good. Reading the bible as a story that you choose not to believe will not bring you salvation. OK. But, there can be other reasons for reading it - and it is entirely possible that pieces of it will eventually make sense to you in a different way and bring you closer to being a believer. I don't get the argument that there is no reason to read it if you aren't a believer.
 
#2,339
#2,339
TennTradition said:
It's not pointless to read. Are fairy tales pointless to read? Then why do we read them to our children?
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I don't teach fairy tales to my children TT, my wife did that before I came in to the picture, mainly because of tradition. I could care less about every Hallmark holiday out there.
 
#2,340
#2,340
TennTradition said:
I wasn't quoting your posts and disagreeing with them (not saying you aren't in this conversation, but just saying that it wasn't you who said they shouldn't read it).

Eric's been saying it will do them no good to read it, but that intends on what you view as good. Reading the bible as a story that you choose not to believe will not bring you salvation. OK. But, there can be other reasons for reading it - and it is entirely possible that pieces of it will eventually make sense to you in a different way and bring you closer to being a believer. I don't get the argument that there is no reason to read it if you aren't a believer.
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Your not getting it man, it's all good. Are you a believer TT??
 
#2,341
#2,341
g8terh8ter_eric said:
I don't teach fairy tales to my children TT, my wife did that before I came in to the picture, mainly because of tradition. I could care less about every Hallmark holiday out there.
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#2,343
#2,343
g8terh8ter_eric said:
I don't teach fairy tales to my children TT, my wife did that before I came in to the picture, mainly because of tradition. I could care less about every Hallmark holiday out there.
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So you argue there is no point in it? That it's useless? What if the kids enjoy hearing the stories? Is it still useless? (I'm not arguing that you should read them to them, here....just that there can be usefulness in it, even if it just sparks imagination.)

Is there never any value in reading anything? I'm trying to understand the end game here. While I agree that reading the words of the bible alone will not bring salvation to a non-believer (or believer, I suppose)...I still don't get the "they shouldn't read it" and "there's no value in it" arguments.
 
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#2,344
#2,344
TennTradition said:
So you argue there is no point in it? That it's useless? What if the kids enjoy hearing the stories? Is it still useless?

Is there never any value in reading anything? I'm trying to understand the end game here. While I agree that reading the words of the bible alone will not bring salvation to a non-believer (or believer, I suppose)...I still don't get the "they shouldn't read it" and "there's no value in it" arguments.
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You read things for a reason, obviously, but the Bible is something that is read for spiritual nurturing, IMO. If it's read for any other reason, it's just a book. The Bible is not JUST another book, it is THE book.
 
#2,345
#2,345
g8terh8ter_eric said:
You read things for a reason, obviously, but the Bible is something that is read for spiritual nurturing, IMO. If it's read for any other reason, it's just a book. The Bible is not JUST another book, it is THE book.
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But, if it is read by a non-believer and it is just a book, it is still a book to them. And, if they want to read it, so be it. Perhaps they don't get what they could get out of it, but let them read it....and what they will hopefully get out of it may eventually come.
 
#2,347
#2,347
TennTradition said:
But, if it is read by a non-believer and it is just a book, it is still a book to them. And, if they want to read it, so be it. Perhaps they don't get what they could get out of it, but let them read it....and what they will hopefully get out of it may eventually come.
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I've never said that they can't read it, I've said what's the point in reading it if you don't believe?? You won't get anything out of it if you don't believe. It would be just a bunch of Sci-Fi events to the non-believer.
 
#2,348
#2,348
TennTradition said:
I am.

But, I've got to be honest, I struggle with aspects of belief. My beliefs/understanding have morphed a lot since I began this journey 20 years ago.
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Let me ask you something then...

Do you feel like it has gotten more complicated as you have gotten older, or more simple as you have believed longer?? It's gotten much easier for me, mainly because I stopped complicating it by trying to understand everything in the Bible, because you just can't understand every little detail that the Bible teaches, because it can change 4 times if you read it 4 times. That's mainly because the Bible gives you what you need out of it each time you read it. I've stopped trying to discern everything, just makes it easier on my spirit. Sometimes a Christian tries to learn too much at once, ya know??
 
#2,349
#2,349
g8terh8ter_eric said:
I've never said that they can't read it, I've said what's the point in reading it if you don't believe?? You won't get anything out of it if you don't believe. It would be just a bunch of Sci-Fi events to the non-believer.
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If by "anything" you mean they won't reach a closer relationship with God or achieve salvation, then you might be right. However, I would argue there are other things that they could possibly get out of it.

However, I would also argue that reading it could provide a lesson/teaching that makes sense in a different way later...and if that happens, it could spark a desire to seek additional understandings of the bible. That's not a bad thing.
 
#2,350
#2,350
TennTradition said:
If by "anything" you mean they won't reach a closer relationship with God or achieve salvation, then you might be right. However, I would argue there are other things that they could possibly get out of it.

However, I would also argue that reading it could provide a lesson/teaching that makes sense in a different way later...and if that happens, it could spark a desire to seek additional understandings of the bible. That's not a bad thing.
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You keep referring to someone who is searching, and I am referring to those who are just out to obtain knowledge. That's always been my point.
 
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