Republican Lies About Keystone Pipeline

[milohimself]

OP you must not have a single clue how construction works. Every single construction job creates temporary work. Most projects last barely more than a year and a half. However the pipeline job would have created A LOT of work for a lot of people that could have used it.

It's been a few months since I've looked at the issue, but as far as I know there has only been one independent study on the matter and it concluded that the jobs impact would be negligible for american workers. I can find a link when I'm on a computer.

 

[Vol Main]

Pipeline is by far the most environmentally safest way to transport oil. Welspun Produces a lot of good pipe here in the US. Nucor is almost done with a billion dollar smelter in LA that will produce pipe for pipelines and wells

Oh and im sure those landowners between canada and houston don't want/need $500 per 40 foot piece of pipe

Trans-Canada is not purchasing any of the pipe from American industries. It contracted to import all of the pipe from India, which is very low grade. And a pipeline is not a safe way to transport shale oil. It's a sludge which must be heated in the pipe continually, an engineering nightmare during winter.

 

[Vol Main]

Sweet! We will be exporters of Oil. We will keep US$s in US banks. No more funding BS construction jobs in the ME. It will save us billions in military too

Yeah, won't it be great after they've exported all of the oil reserves as fast as they can to make as much money as they can, so we won't have enough oil...again.

 

[Weezy]

While the net positive effect might not be greater than any other project, I don't believe it will have any negative consequence to discourage proceeding on it. America should be encouraging all industries to get going, not hiding behind a low probability potential of spill or whatever. Based on what I read, the environmental threat is minor. So let it go.

 

[Weezy]

Yeah, won't it be great after they've sold all of the oil reserves as fast as they can to make as much money as they can, so we won't have enough oil...again.

Peak oil has never lived up to the hype. We all know it's a limited resource, but as prices rise, the market responds and finds new ways to extract oil or locate more. It's happening now as it always has. The market is a cool thing about that.

 

[milohimself]

While the net positive effect might not be greater than any other project, I don't believe it will have any negative consequence to discourage proceeding on it. America should be encouraging all industries to get going, not hiding behind a low probability potential of spill or whatever. Based on what I read, the environmental threat is minor. So let it go.

Yeah, that was the initial thought behind it, as the part of the pipeline under question would be built through a key aquifer that is the largest water source for much of the midwest.

Environmentalists are being unreasonable about the potential environmental threat, but conservatives are being unrealistic about the economic impact this project would have.

Somebody else brushed on the real issue here with Buffet, this whole deal is really a battle between competing special interests in Washington, what you hear out of the mouths of Democrats and Republicans alike is a lot of nonsense.

 

[Vol Main]

Peak oil has never lived up to the hype. We all know it's a limited resource, but as prices rise, the market responds and finds new ways to extract oil or locate more. It's happening now as it always has. The market is a cool thing about that.

Market managers find a way to make things happen. My point is that much of what the American public is hearing about the Keystone Pipeline from Republicans is a pack of lies. American workers will benefit very little, and both American industries and consumers will pay higher prices when the pipeline is completed. If people don't understand anything else about the Keystone Pipeline, they need to understand this; it's purpose is to export oil products at higher prices, not deliver them to Americans at lower prices.

 

[Vol Main]

Enbridge and U.S. Faulted for Michigan Oil Spill - WSJ.com

Michigan Pipeline Leak Could Be Worst Ever in the Midwest - 24/7 Wall St.

 

[allvol123]

Agreed. Current energy policy is working much better.

 

[volinbham]

I've read a bunch of stuff that definitely states everything Obama said about Keystone is a lie.

 

[VolsNSkinsFan]

Yeah, won't it be great after they've exported all of the oil reserves as fast as they can to make as much money as they can, so we won't have enough oil...again.

We aren't running out of oil for 50+ years. Who is "they"? The Landowners getting huge bonuses and 25% of what comes out of the ground?

Trans-Canada is not purchasing any of the pipe from American industries. It contracted to import all of the pipe from India, which is very low grade. And a pipeline is not a safe way to transport shale oil. It's a sludge which must be heated in the pipe continually, an engineering nightmare during winter.

They haven't even approved it yet and you know where the pipe is coming from? There are strict steel pipe tariffs. Pipeline is hands down the best way to transport oil. Currently shipping it by rail is awful for air quality from the fumes venting out of the cars. We built a pipeline in Alaska 40 years ago but Kansas is a nightmare? There are multiple pipelines along the same route. No excuse not to build it

 

[volinbham]

Can't have pipes transporting gas and oil - too dangerous. Wait a minute...

 

[volinbham]

Funny too that Team Obama has never mentioned that Keystone would raise gas prices.

 

[TruthIsOutThere]

Pipeline is by far the most environmentally safest way to transport oil. Welspun Produces a lot of good pipe here in the US. Nucor is almost done with a billion dollar smelter in LA that will produce pipe for pipelines and wells

Oh and im sure those landowners between canada and houston don't want/need $500 per 40 foot piece of pipe

Quit reading after "most environmentally safest"

 

[Vol Main]

They haven't even approved it yet and you know where the pipe is coming from? There are strict steel pipe tariffs. Pipeline is hands down the best way to transport oil. Currently shipping it by rail is awful for air quality from the fumes venting out of the cars. We built a pipeline in Alaska 40 years ago but Kansas is a nightmare? There are multiple pipelines along the same route. No excuse not to build it

Here's the deal. When I looked into this issue way back when, industry sources stated India as the sole supplier. Yes, I do goto industry sources for information. A flap over this issue has developed since then, with Trans-Canada making statements about domestic sourcing which are under Congressional investigation. Did I over-simplify? Maybe...or maybe not.

Committee Democrats to TransCanada: Immediately Disclose Origin of Steel to be Used on Keystone XL Pipeline | Committee on Energy and Commerce Democrats

“TransCanada has repeatedly assured Congress that 75 percent of the steel used in the Keystone XL pipeline will be made in North America,” Congressman Doyle observed. “And yet, this company has been unwilling or unable to provide us with documentation to back up that statement... After looking into this issue in some detail, I have concluded that TransCanada has already purchased most, if not all, of the steel for the Keystone XL pipeline from foreign mills." U.S. Rep. Mike Doyle(PA)
Doyle Calls for Truth in Advertising on Keystone Pipeline Jobs | Congressman Mike Doyle

(The below excerpt is from the Arkansas Times)
"I point you again to the Cornell study that has debunked the exaggerated job claims on this project, including claims of domestic jobs for steel and pipe production. For example:

It therefore seems likely that the rest of the pipe needed for KXL will probably be manufactured in Welspun’s Indian plants and then shipped to the U.S for final processing (double jointing and coating) or manufactured in Welspun’s Arkansas plant, which imports raw coiled steel and other production inputs (notably from India and South Korea.)

These arrangements allow TransCanada to state that “approximately 75% of the pipe for the US portion of the proposed project would be purchased from North American pipe manufacturing facilities.” This claim is misleading on two levels. Firstly, it is possible to purchase from a North American facility, but this does not necessarily mean that the steel was produced in those facilities. Secondly, the jobs created in Canada-while important to the Canadian economy—should not then be pitched as “American jobs” to the media and the American public." Republicans have a new pipeline strategy | Arkansas Blog

BTW, I've never said that I oppose the Keystone Pipeline, because I don't. I'm merely pointing out real concerns and the fact that Republican attacks on President Obama are based upon...drum roll...a pack of lies.

 

[BigPapaVol]

Vol main, you make a nice partisan effort to combat conjecture with more conjecture. It's brilliant - to stupid people.

 

[VolsNSkinsFan]

The numbers of jobs created are debatable. But the facts are clear.

Pipeline is the safest way to transport oil. Buffet is charging $4 per barrel to ship oil, the pipeline would charge 40 cents. Landowners between Canada and the Gulf will be well compensated for ROW. Thousands of workers will descend on small towns, filling hotel rooms and restaurants. Trucks used for hauling pipe and equipment will use local gas stations. Maintenance on equipment will be done by local shops. The economic impact is wide and beggers can't be choosers.

 

[Arclight]

Vol Main - where do you get this stuff?

How on earth would Keystone increase gas prices in the U.S.

From the DNC Fax machine.

 

[Vol Main]

Vol main, you make a nice partisan effort to combat conjecture with more conjecture. It's brilliant - to stupid people.

Nice comment, Pappy. However, it's just plain wrong, so you ought not bring up the subject of "stupid people." I researched this subject only after criticizing President Obama for the delay, long before I decided to support his re-election. That is of course also before I reached any of the conclusions posted here. I had not suspected that Keystone would lead to higher prices at the pump, nor had I thought that all of the pipe would be imported from India. I had believed the lies, that the pipeline would increase steel jobs and oil supplies to America to reduce prices. But when I looked into it, I found that all of these things we were told were not true. The reality is that the information about Trans-Canada building the pipeline to export its oil at higher prices is in their own investor's prospectus, plus many other reputable sources. That is not conjecture. And the information about the contracts for imported Indian pipe was confirmed with matter of fact articles in an industrial trade magazine, plus many other sources. That is not conjecture.

Frankly, I do not like people lying to me. It goes against me. And I really do not like to see lies repeated by our elected officials to determine public opinion and policy. When I realized that was what Republicans were doing with this issue, I took a pretty dim view of those doing it. If you are the kind of person who continues to support lies and liars, even after you find them out for what they are, then that's your lookout. I am not that kind of person.

 

[volinbham]

Trans-Canada is not purchasing any of the pipe from American industries. It contracted to import all of the pipe from India, which is very low grade.

Here's the deal. When I looked into this issue way back when, industry sources stated India as the sole supplier. Yes, I do goto industry sources for information. A flap over this issue has developed since then, with Trans-Canada making statements about domestic sourcing which are under Congressional investigation. Did I over-simplify? Maybe...or maybe not.

Committee Democrats to TransCanada: Immediately Disclose Origin of Steel to be Used on Keystone XL Pipeline | Committee on Energy and Commerce Democrats

“TransCanada has repeatedly assured Congress that 75 percent of the steel used in the Keystone XL pipeline will be made in North America,” Congressman Doyle observed. “And yet, this company has been unwilling or unable to provide us with documentation to back up that statement... After looking into this issue in some detail, I have concluded that TransCanada has already purchased most, if not all, of the steel for the Keystone XL pipeline from foreign mills." U.S. Rep. Mike Doyle(PA)
Doyle Calls for Truth in Advertising on Keystone Pipeline Jobs | Congressman Mike Doyle

(The below excerpt is from the Arkansas Times)
"I point you again to the Cornell study that has debunked the exaggerated job claims on this project, including claims of domestic jobs for steel and pipe production. For example:

It therefore seems likely that the rest of the pipe needed for KXL will probably be manufactured in Welspun’s Indian plants and then shipped to the U.S for final processing (double jointing and coating) or manufactured in Welspun’s Arkansas plant, which imports raw coiled steel and other production inputs (notably from India and South Korea.)

These arrangements allow TransCanada to state that “approximately 75% of the pipe for the US portion of the proposed project would be purchased from North American pipe manufacturing facilities.” This claim is misleading on two levels. Firstly, it is possible to purchase from a North American facility, but this does not necessarily mean that the steel was produced in those facilities. Secondly, the jobs created in Canada-while important to the Canadian economy—should not then be pitched as “American jobs” to the media and the American public." Republicans have a new pipeline strategy | Arkansas Blog

Frankly, I do not like people lying to me. It goes against me. And I really do not like to see lies repeated by our elected officials to determine public opinion and policy. When I realized that was what Republicans were doing with this issue, I took a pretty dim view of those doing it. If you are the kind of person who continues to support lies and liars, even after you find them out for what they are, then that's your lookout. I am not that kind of person.

Seems you lied to us with your first comment even though you knew the situation was not the definitive you began with. The truth is you have some conjecture that that the pipe will all be imported but you stated that as an absolute fact which it is not. Why start a thread saying everything R's says is a lie (a huge exaggeration on its face) then stretch the truth to make your point?

Likewise, you are stating as fact that our gas prices will increase if the pipeline is created. That too is speculation and the number of variables at play make it impossible to make such a claim with certainty.

 

[BigPapaVol]

Nice comment, Pappy. However, it's just plain wrong. I researched this subject only after criticizing President Obama for the delay, long before I decided to support his re-election. That is of course also before I reached any of the conclusions posted here. I had not suspected that Keystone would lead to higher prices at the pump, nor had I thought that all of the pipe would be imported from India. I had believed the lies, that the pipeline would increase steel jobs and oil supplies to America to reduce prices. But when I looked into it, I found that all of these things we were told were not true. The reality is that the information about Trans-Canada building the pipeline to export its oil at higher prices is in their own investor's prospectus, plus many other reputable sources. That is not conjecture. And the information about the contracts for imported Indian pipe was confirmed with matter of fact articles in an industrial trade magazine, plus many other sources. That is not conjecture.

Frankly, I do not like people lying to me. It goes against me. And I really do not like to see lies repeated by our elected officials to determine public opinion and policy. When I realized that was what Republicans were doing with this issue, I took a pretty dim view of those doing it. If you are the kind of person who continues to support lies and liars, even after you find them out for what they are, then that's your lookout. I am not that kind of person.

you wrote all of this tripe, including info from a propectus (which you've tried to equate with truth), declared yourself an Obama voter and then decried lying. Nice credibility.

 

[Vol Main]

Seems you lied to us with your first comment even though you knew the situation was not the definitive you began with. The truth is you have some conjecture that that the pipe will all be imported but you stated that as an absolute fact which it is not. Why start a thread saying everything R's says is a lie (a huge exaggeration on its face) then stretch the truth to make your point?

Likewise, you are stating as fact that our gas prices will increase if the pipeline is created. That too is speculation and the number of variables at play make it impossible to make such a claim with certainty.

Resist the dark side, Dude; you're going way too negative on me. I posted with confidence about pipe being imported from India, after doing the work on that about nine months ago. Industrial trade magazines are good sources of information about industrial projects. After turning up claims about the imported pipe in several online sources, I found a few articles in an industrial magazine(all industries have them) which stated matter of factly that Trans-Canada had already contracted for all of the pipe to be imported from India. The author went into some detail about the pipe, the company, contracts, shipping arrangements, etc., as statements of fact written for others in the industry. There was no stretching about it. Trans-Canada paid a firm to gin up material for lobbying Congress, making claims that I believe are highly deceptive, claims that Republicans repeated to the American people as fact. Since I researched this, they have created a lot of confusion. If you want to swallow all of their output without doing your own work, that's your decision. I did my own research and concluded that the line put out by the Republican Party machine is a pack of lies. I stand on my own research and my posts.

As for the pipeline causing higher gas prices, what is there in my posts that you find unconvincing? Do you not understand the law of supply and demand? Do you know the meaning of the word export? There are numerous articles and studies available. Here's a suggestion for you. Get a copy of the Trans-Canada investor prospectus for Keystone Pipeline XL and read it. It states...to investors...in considerable detail...that the pipeline will enable Trans-Canada to charge higher prices to American refineries. So, do you think that Trans-Canada selling at higher prices to refineries will make prices go higher at the pump...or lower at the pump? Dude, like give me your opinion, man!

 

[Vol Main]

In before Tide Warrior that a Trans-Canada investor prospectus is a far left whackjob.

 

[volinbham]

Resist the dark side, Dude; you're going way too negative on me. I posted with confidence about pipe being imported from India, after doing the work on that about nine months ago. Industrial trade magazines are good sources of information about industrial projects. After turning up claims about the imported pipe in several online sources, I found a few articles in an industrial magazine(all industries have them) which stated matter of factly that Trans-Canada had already contracted for all of the pipe to be imported from India. The author went into some detail about the pipe, the company, contracts, shipping arrangements, etc., as statements of fact written for others in the industry. There was no stretching about it. Trans-Canada paid a firm to gin up material for lobbying Congress, making claims that I believe are highly deceptive, claims that Republicans repeated to the American people as fact. Since I researched this, they have created a lot of confusion. If you want to swallow all of their output without doing your own work, that's your decision. I did my own research and concluded that the line put out by the Republican Party machine is a pack of lies. I stand on my own research and my posts.

Again you confuse definitive statements of facts with predictions about what might be - and your own research as posted calls into question the original statement you presented to us a fact.

As for the pipeline causing higher gas prices, what is there in my posts that you find unconvincing? Do you not understand the law of supply and demand? Do you know the meaning of the word export? There are numerous articles and studies available. Here's a suggestion for you. Get a copy of the Trans-Canada investor prospectus for Keystone Pipeline XL and read it. It states...to investors...in considerable detail...that the pipeline will enable Trans-Canada to charge higher prices to American refineries. So, do you think that Trans-Canada selling at higher prices to refineries will make prices go higher at the pump...or lower at the pump? Dude, like give me your opinion, man!

Of course I understand supply and demand. Prices are never simply a direct function though. Keystone will increase the supply of oil - that should put downward pressure on prices but of course their are other factors. Likewise, if Keystone isn't approved TC will still produce the oil and distribute it onto the world market via other means. In short there are many factors which will ultimately dictate what impact (positive/negative/negligible) that Keystone would have on gas prices in the US. Once again, you claim that anyone who doesn't agree with you conclusively that Keystone will raise gas prices in the US is either lying or doesn't understand economics. Neither is true of course since the simple relationship you state as fact is neither that simple nor established fact.

 

[Vol Main]

you wrote all of this tripe, including info from a propectus (which you've tried to equate with truth), declared yourself an Obama voter and then decried lying. Nice credibility.

Pap, I got to call you out. Before you get all bad on Trans-Canada's "propectus," read it.